We think of rebels as troublemakers, outcasts, contrarians - people who complicate otherwise straightforward decisions and create chaos wherever they go.
But, in truth, rebels are also those who change the world for the better - instead of staying with the familiar, they defy the status quo!
They are masters of innovation and reinvention - and we have much to learn from them!
Join Ben and Francesca Gino as they dive into what it truly means to be a rebel.
We think of rebels as troublemakers, outcasts, contrarians - people who complicate otherwise straightforward decisions and create chaos wherever they go.
But, in truth, rebels are also those who change the world for the better - instead of staying with the familiar, they defy the status quo!
They are masters of innovation and reinvention - and we have much to learn from them!
Join Ben and Francesca Gino as they dive into what it truly means to be a rebel.
Ben Chodor 00:00
Good morning! Good afternoon! Good evening - wherever you are! I am so excited for this session for two reasons. One is that it's part of my Insights podcast. And it's also part of our Festival for Communicators. And I couldn't think of a better timing. My guest today is Francesca [Gino], the author of "Rebel Talent: Why It Pays to Break Rules at Work and In Life". And let me tell you something - I am an avid reader. I've done about 20 of these so far. And this is the first time I had a book where I read it twice. And I've actually now sent it to my entire leadership team. And I have so many pages that have, you know, little marks in them so I can go back. Let's bring on Francesca. Francesca, thank you for being here. And I really mean it. There's a guy who created a show called Barstool Sports, and he tries pizza all over the world. He tries pizza, and he calls it "Two Bites"; like, he takes it in one bite and then reviews it and gives it stars. This was a two sitting book; all it took me was two times. Sat down, read it. And then the second time, it was like a seating and a half. Loved the book. And my favorite part about are two things: you had me at "Hello" when you brought in Massimo [Bottura] and Italian food. Like, in the very beginning - forget about the book! You started off [with] two of my favorite things. He's probably my favorite celebrity chef in the entire world. And anytime we get to talk about food, it's incredible. You sucked me in there, and you did not let me go until the very, very end.
Francesca Gino 01:48
Thank you for that. I'm so happy to hear that. We spent so much time researching and then writing and sweating about the writing and so I'm really happy that you found the book.
Francesca Gino 01:59
That's awesome. I am so happy that you had that reaction is the one that I was hoping for, for any readers of the book. And it was really a fun journey to work on these ideas and bring them to any they're out there.
Ben Chodor 01:59
The stories are just... I love this! They're real stories and it makes you, you know, scratch your head because - I took a couple of notes before I jump in. Just so that everyone listening or watching understands like, not only are we talking about my favorite celebrity chef in the world, you talk about Houdini, Napoleon, Zuckerberg, Sully Sullenberger? I mean, the list goes on; Campbell's Soup! I mean, the stories, they just suck me in. And as someone who I, my organization has 1500 people globally, in 17 countries. And I always think about myself as a leader and how I communicate. And when I hear these stories, because when you hear about the book, you go, rebel, what's a rebel mean? Do I need to be you know, James Dean? Is it that kind of rebel? No, a rebel just sees things differently, and makes it happen. And that to me, it just really opened my eyes. And I just, I feel like a fanboy in the beginning. And I just want to thank you for writing. It's a book that's really needed.
Ben Chodor 03:18
I also find it really fascinating even though it's not you mentioned in the book, but it's more about, you know, your day job when you're teaching at Harvard, or you're working with executives, how you even mentioned a book some executives come in when they come in with a big ego and how to ask answer questions and how they respond. And others. So before we jump in, have you found, because you do so many different studies, the background of that CEO doesn't make a difference. Like if he grew up poor, and had to work his way to top or someone who grew up really wealthy or someone who went to the greatest schools or didn't? Is there something different in a rebel mentality based on how you started in life?
Francesca Gino 04:01
Part of the reason why I was so excited to work on this book is that I tried to be comprehensive; find people who were rebels across the globe. So not only in the United States; female, male, people of different races, and the idea is not as much where you started, but what you did with your raw talent. Did you have the courage to truly embrace it? Part of the idea behind rebels is that a lot of the qualities that these constructive rebels have are qualities we can all embrace if we fight against our human nature. So what I find is common across these rebel is that courage of pushing against what comes naturally to us when there is taking things for granted. Sitting with what is comfortable and familiar. They push the rules when rules are stopping them and they do so in a way that is very positive and constructive.
Ben Chodor 05:03
Are you a rebel?
Francesca Gino 05:05
I am still learning how to be one and be more consistent in the way I embrace these ideas. But it's been quite a journey of transformation. I felt so inspired by the many people I studied and met. You mentioned Massimo Bottura, clearly a person who shaped a lot of my thinking. And a lot of the philosophies or mantras that I remind myself of, in my work, actually are phrases and philosophies that I learned from him. I'll give you one that I love. He always says that traditions are well-received experiments; traditions exist to be rebuilt. Just beautiful, because again, they put everything in evolution rather than in static terms.
Ben Chodor 05:59
Yeah, and you know, not so much about the book. But one of the things that I loved what you wrote about it, and made me even admire him more, is when you talked about he's sweeping in the morning in front of his three Michelin star restaurant, and he is tasting the mozzarella when it comes, right? And he is looking at the menu and you never stop learning and he never lost that, I call that childish quality of what he loves what he's doing. And that's, I think that comes throughout the whole book, the ones who are successful never lose that. So I loved a couple of the experiments you did in class. I mean, you did one with $100 bill, which is I think, is pretty fascinating how, yeah, which we'll talk about a little bit later. But the first one is, you talk in your Harvard class about the red sneaker experiment? Can you explain that to the audience? And first, why did you do it? And how did it go over?
Francesca Gino 06:55
Absolutely. Sometimes you want to try things that you study on yourself. So I was studying at a time with a couple of my colleagues, what happens when people behave in non-conforming ways. And so the red sneakers were an element, in this case of the way we dress in a context that is thought of as very serious. And so I remember in our research conversations, cooking up different ways of thinking about the research study. And then I mentioned that one of the contexts that is usually very serious is a Harvard executive program where you have a very established, competent leaders come in and learn. And I had the opportunity of teaching the same class, to the same group of people back to back, the group was so large that they decided to divide it into sections. And so I would basically teach the first class and then teach the second one, try to the best of my capacity and capabilities to keep everything the same. And so what we decided to do is to use that opportunity to test some of our ideas. So same class, same person teaching it, but in between the classes, they changed my shoes, so I was wearing a suit. And the first I was wearing a very sophisticated, elegant pair of leather shoes. And then in the second class, I had the red sneakers. And at the end of the class, we could look at what the students what these executives thought of me and the value of the ideas that I shared with them. We also asked them how much they thought I charge you my consulting, and we wanted to share that in the class where I was showing up as non conforming. In that case, because of the shoes that I was wearing. I would be regarded as a person as a professor of higher status. And so more influential person who charges more for services and consulting. And that's exactly what we found.
Ben Chodor 09:08
I love that. I love it. I mean, you have so many examples of that throughout the entire book. That's why everyone should read the book because the hardest part about an interview like this is I could spend an hour with you on just one chapter. So here's a question I got for you. I love the deep dive in what really makes to be a rebel. How did you come up with these five characteristics and you want to share with the five are?
Francesca Gino 09:32
Absolutely So the five characteristics are a talent for novelty. So rather than sitting with what's familiar and comfortable, these brambles embrace the new. The second one is curiosity. Rebels are really good at having that sense of awe and wonder that we used to have when we were little kids, this constant way of questioning and experimenting and pushing boundaries. We are in for discovery. The third one is perspective. Rather than coming to a problem or a situation with just one view, rebels are really able to look at all sorts of angles. Then there is the talent for authenticity. Rather than conforming to what others are saying or doing, they bring their contributions forward, their ideas forward. And finally, they have a talent for diversity. So they push back on these stereotypical views and biases that society often pushes on us.
Ben Chodor 10:34
So do you need all five to be a true rebel?
Francesca Gino 10:38
No, you can be like me on the journey. And in fact, I created a test after I wrote the book it's called The Rebel Test; it's free, people can access it pretty easily. And he tells you where you're at. And it gives you some advice on other dimensions or ideas to keep in mind as you continue your journey as a constructive rebel.
Ben Chodor 11:01
So I mentioned to you off air that I made a bunch of leaders in my organization take it and I actually took it two times. And I came out as a pirate, and a lot of my leaders came out as climbers and travelers. So does that surprise you? When you hear about a leadership team coming out like that? And there's like, one isn't better than the other, right? Or is it just who you are? How should we read it? I mean, outside, you get to anyone who takes a test, it actually tells you what it means. But how should we introspectively look at it, when I hear I'm a pirate, should I go? Well, that's pretty good. Or should I go like, well, I need a lot of work.
Francesca Gino 11:41
I would feel good about your being a pirate in general, this sort and these duration for working on this test is to really give people more awareness of talents that come to them more naturally. And so depending on the types, some of these talents that we talked about are just almost default points of strength, but also leave you with some ideas on how to continue to journey. And so some of your colleagues, for instance, who didn't end up being pirates might wanna figure out how to approach work with even more curiosity. And so you have opportunities for continuous learning and improvement.
Ben Chodor 12:24
You know, it's funny, because I look at it as a positive, but then other people in the norms look at it as you should be more focused on this, instead of being curiosity, and I always looked at things like, is there a different way to do it? Or, you know, like, being first, you know, and failing? Is okay, as long as you keep on moving forward. But it's not what they teach you normally, you know, and that's why I think in school, I wasn't the best student in like, elementary school in high school, because they tried to put you in a box and make you this is what smart is, I don't know if it really does that. So
Francesca Gino 13:01
Yeah, I've always wondered why if you look at the data, specifically to curiosity, we're all born with it., peaks at the age four and five, and then there is a steady decline from there. I think that that is just so sad. I speak as the mom of four small children who are I feel like I mean, the land of curiosity, but it's beautiful to see that spark comes from exploring or asking what if? Or why?
Ben Chodor 13:28
I love the what if, and everything to me is what if you could do it better and goes back to like, listen, when you talked about Massimo, and is in his restaurant? They everything they did every dish was why can't you and why can't you do that? And I just love it. Alright, so one of the questions I have for you is, from your experience, why do people tend to just uphold the status quo? Like why? Why not venture out? Why? What makes you to stay status quo? It sounds sad to me.
Francesca Gino 14:02
It sounds sad. And yet venturing out means doing something different, that could maybe turn out into something worse. And I think that people just fear that. It's also interesting that doing something different makes us stand out. But it brings attention in a way that again, may lead to an evaluation and people fear judgment. One of the things that they've learned in this journey of working on these ideas, it's a mantra that is very prominent in improv comedy theaters, which is something that I studied quite a bit, partly because I took my husband to improv comedy classes as a Christmas gift. But one of the mantra is that judgment and curiosity can't coexist. And so if you think about it being a rebel, venturing out, staying curious. Often we don't do that because that requires courage. We need to move away from this thinking of I fear being judged. And so I don't want to put ideas out there that may create disagreements or that people might not agree with. That's the pirate.
Ben Chodor 15:23
I love that it was really interesting you say that because later on today I'm interviewing or, like this is we're actually recording this for the show. But live I'm interviewing Brendan Hunt to is one of the stars of Ted lasso. And both him and my research both him, Jason Sudeikis, and the other creator of the show, they started an improv and they they did it they say improv created who they are, because it taught them how to listen, and then react as opposed to react just a moment and they credit their success on improv.
Francesca Gino 16:03
Absolutely, I have learned so much. And it was really an idea out of the blue. Because they wanted to do something fun that would help us experience something new. And it turned out to be a really eye opening experience. Lots of reflections on what I was learning what I was experiencing is that they're really irrelevant for life. So yeah, and listening is one of them - listening to understand rather than getting ready to talk.
Ben Chodor 16:31
Well, I think listening is one of the most underrated and most important tools because a lot of senior executives feel like we know everything, we're gonna come in there, there's nothing we can learn. And you even mentioned you even talk about in the book is no, the best leaders are the ones who actually can see what's going on. And it helps you innovate and helps you become better. So I agree 100% with that. So another part of rebels is rebels also have perspective, they can broaden their views of the world to see it as others do. How to rebels use perspective to their advantage, or what are some tips to use it to your advantage?
Francesca Gino 17:09
To me the best example is the example of Sully Sullenberger, Sully Sullenberger became famous because of the miracle of the Hudson. And that moment where he had 208 seconds to decide what to do with a plane that [lost] thrust in the engine. And rather than doing what most of us would have done in a moment of pressure, and great responsibility, since he had 155 passengers on the plane, he decided to come up with a rather innovative option of landing the plane in the Hudson River, everybody was safe. Now, what's interesting about it is that he was very experienced by the time the accident happened. And yet he had built this habit of mind of always keeping a broad perspective. And he did so by asking himself a very simple series of questions every time he walked into the carpet would say, What do I stand to learn today? And so you had this very, very compelling way of looking at his experience and expertise, not as a signal that he knew it all. But it is a signal that there is more to learn. And so I would say, let's hold on to that you melody as we climb the organizational ladder as we acquire more experience, and consider the possibility and be open to the possibility that there are other ways of approaching problems that there are other ways of looking at a certain situation.
Ben Chodor 18:35
I also like how you mentioned in the book, he said that he had [been] flying for 30 some odd years, that he had a basically a file cabinet in his head of every experience he had. And he knew at one time in his life going forward, he can pull from that at a moment's notice. And so every experience he had, he didn't take for granted. He stored them away for another time. And I thought that was like, really cool. That was the way you know, he looked at everything. He was never stopped. He never stopped learning. And I thought that was really fascinating. All right, so here's another one that you put in there is rebels also have a perspective they can broaden their view of the world to see it as others do. How do rebels' perspective you know, change?
Francesca Gino 19:28
So, inspired by Sully, one of the things that has helped me especially when I come into situations where I know I might disagree with the person is focusing on what can I learn from them? It really puts you in a totally different posture because now I have that curiosity; now I want to ask questions, I want to investigate in a way that is very different from coming in and just stating what I think or wanting to make sure that my up dominates the discussion. So that's my own reminder is focusing on what do I stand to learn in this interaction in this situation in this conversation?
Ben Chodor 20:12
I love that. All right, one of my favorites in the book also is you actually talk about the importance of diversity, right? Rebels challenge social roles and reach out to those who are different. How does this fit the idea of a rebel, as cool, aloof, you know, and a loner?
Francesca Gino 20:28
It's interesting that many of the rebels that I've met, are not necessarily alone, they are alone in their courage, but for the very fact that they take actions, they bring everybody with them, so that there is a different appreciation, or where contributions might come from. I think that there is much more openness to the fact that people who look different from me or think differently, have something valuable to offer.
Ben Chodor 21:01
I love that. Alright, so one of the areas I want to spend a little time on is the importance of authenticity. I think I've built my career on being authentic, I am who I am, and I love talking to everyone in my organization. I do like a couple things. I'm the final interview with anyone who's coming in. And we're 1500 people, right? I send thank you notes to employees, and I randomly, you actually mentioned in the book, I randomly have one on ones with 3,4,5,6 down in the organization, because it's the only way I really hear what's happening in the organization. And how can I get them to believe in what I vision for the organization if I don't do it? But when you talk about an authenticity? Why do people have so muchstruggle trying to just be who they are - what are they scared of?
Francesca Gino 21:51
I think that they're scared of standing out, especially in context. Again, think of it not from your perspective, from the perspective of the very people who are on the other side interviewing, they want to make a good impression. That's what they're focused on. And what they don't realize is that, by the very act of trying to cater to whatever it is that is on your mind, or consider your expectations, they're failing to embrace the opportunity of showing ways in which they can contribute. I often and in fact, in some of my own research, I collected data in context like interviews, and when you ask very talented people, how are they going to approach it, often they say, Well, I am going to make a good impression by trying my best to fit what I say to whatever is expected on the other side. And so they decided that that is an approach that is better in terms of what is gonna lead us to as compared to be inauthentic. And they have this wrong. So we just need to be ourselves to win the job or to win that deal. And the same goes for every other aspect of our work.
Ben Chodor 23:12
Alright, now since I read the book twice, I might be mixing this up. But one of the things that you actually talked about, and I think authenticity kind of fits in it. When you talk about Mark Zuckerberg before they went public, how he went into an investor day wearing his traditional shirt and a hoodie. And there were some analysts in the back of room going, he's he should be wearing a suit. He's trying to get money from us. And then the reality is he was being who he is. And the list goes on, you know, jobs ended up doing it. Their authentic jobs, is the jobs in the mock turtleneck, not the jobs who's wearing the suit? Is that sort of what you mean also about being authentic?
Francesca Gino 23:53
Absolutely. And one of the things that we don't realize is that not being authentic. So we're in things that we don't think are that comfortable represent we are or saying things that we don't fully believe he actually hurts our confidence. So we present ourselves in a worse way, we are less clear in our communication, and so ends up not being an effective approach.
Ben Chodor 24:19
Yep. And I think being authentic also, at least in my case, it opened you up to being vulnerable, right? And really enabled you to connect with people. And if you're not, it doesn't let you happen. And it's interesting, because when you were saying about, like the whole interview process. One of the things I do because I'm the final interview, I kind of turn it around on them and try to make them feel ease that if I go my team, my job is to empower my team if they want you you got to me. I mean, obviously we want you in the organization. You get to ask me any questions, and then I see them thinking going, oh my god, I got to come up with a really good question. And I put them at ease going, listen, you're still getting a job offer even if you don't have any questions. So use it or don't use it. It doesn't really I just want you to use this opportunity, because how am I going to ask you to follow me up if you're not going to know who I am? And I just I find that and make if you're authentic, it makes the job so much better. And it makes everything more exciting.
Francesca Gino 25:14
Absolutely. And it's interesting that it's very easy for us as human beings to read through inauthenticity. So if a person is being fake, oh, we feel it. And we can tell that that is, in fact happening.
Ben Chodor 25:30
Oh, yeah, I mean, it, I think there's an inner sense, that goes off. And if your spidey sense, or your, your gut is telling you something, a lot of times it's right. As we run out of time, because I'm, I'm very caring. I know you have a very busy day, and we're on a schedule. But one of the things I really enjoyed about the book was getting a glimpse into your Italian identity. You share amazing experience immersing yourself in high end, Italian restaurants, you know, even a few glimpses into how Italian tradition has dictated much of your wedding planning that you talked about. I wonder, as someone who lives and works in America, do you find Americans or Italians better at being able to be a rebel?
Francesca Gino 26:17
That's a very interesting question. So what I did quite intentionally when I was working on the book, I want the examples to come from all sorts of different contexts. So there are examples of leaders and employees in Italy, but also in other parts of the world. Yes, the best restaurant in the world, but also call centers in India, as well as fast food chain in the United States. And the intention, there were to say, no matter where you sit in your organization, no matter where you sit in the world, we can all do better. If we embrace our inner rebel, and so you find them everywhere.
Ben Chodor 26:58
I love that. I mean, this and I, I really mean it. Everyone should read the book for a couple reasons. One is, it will make you if you're a leader, or you're trying to grow, it gives you really great perspective. But end of the day, it's your stories. I mean, you are your natural storyteller. I think we all have to be storytellers. But like I said, the story about Napoleon. I mean, I'm not giving away because you got to read it. I think the company in Italy, very who made a tech who made a typo.
Francesca Gino 27:28
The first manufacturer of typewriters, beautiful story.
Ben Chodor 27:34
But what's really fascinating about that story, if we could spend one minute on this, because it's the one that I probably took the most away from outside of Massimo, right is that he went into this business has been around making typewriters AI for generation. And he basically said, I want people to be creative, take longer breaks, you know, think out of the norm. It doesn't work. You know, be change. That's a rebel, because talk about some going away from status quo. Like you write about it, but how was it? How did his family take it? Because it was a family business? Did they all scratch their head when he was making these changes?
Francesca Gino 28:13
I think I talked to people who were there and studied the theory of the company. And they did, but then they came to see his brilliance. So like you I love this story. I love the fact that at a time where nobody was thinking about curiosity, nobody was thinking about creating conditions for workers, and really make them appreciate the work that they do. It was there way ahead of his time. So it's one of the stories that I love, by compliments about the book or making the spark and the light come I feel like I'm an angel.
Ben Chodor 28:48
Listen, it's all true. One of the things I also loved about him and his story was, I mean, in a lot of ways he was Steve Jobs before Steve Jobs. I mean, is the first one made typewriters, multiple colors, or what why did they always have to be, I don't know, gray or whatever color they were back then. Why can't they be red? Why can't they be blue? Why can't they be green? I mean, it technology and design and innovation. They can go hand in hand.
Francesca Gino 29:19
Absolutely. He understood that that people need that boost in curiosity, the idea that he came in and one of the first thing that he did was to make lunch from an hour to two hours because the first one is to eat lunch. The second one is to eat culture, just beautiful as an idea. And again in the 60s, so way ahead of his time.
Ben Chodor 29:41
Yeah, and I think a lot of people stole from him going forward because the thought process was the same art if you want to leave her audience so there's a few 1000 People who are innovators, communicators, and then my employees all over the world in 17 countries. What do you want to leave them with?
Francesca Gino 30:00
I'm gonna leave them with something that might come across as arrogant, but it's very felt and genuine. And it's the idea that the world, your work, your life is going to be more joyful. If we embrace our inner rebel. So I truly hope that people are going to engage these ideas, try things out, take the test, and help me spread them. So that we all have more courage and more confidence to be the type of rebels that we were born to be.
Ben Chodor 30:33
And we'll post a link to the rebel test everyone should take. It's great. You don't even really I didn't say this. In the beginning. I took the test. I made my family take it too. So I have boy girl twins who are in their 20s. And they both came out as as travelers. My wife, my wife came out as a pirate also. Here we go. But her personality is so opposite of mine. I mean, I mean, I love her more than anything but different personalities. But she came out of pirate too. So it was really fascinating. Everyone should take the test. It's a lot of fun, and you get to learn something to the book is fascinating. Even if you're not in just the stories are incredible. I wish you nothing but success. Last question. Do you have another book coming out? Is there another book in here?
Francesca Gino 31:19
I'm working hard on the next one, to try to understand how we truly leverage our differences to create value. How do our interactions more effective? How do you collaborate in better ways.
Ben Chodor 31:36
I feel very lucky that I was able to spend you know 37 minutes with you. I appreciate it. And great book. Thank you.
Francesca Gino 31:44
Thank you so much real pleasure to be talking to you.