Ben sits down with Phil Jones, author of Exactly What to Say: The Magic Words for Influence and Impact.
If you have ever found yourself lost for words, or have come away from a conversation without the result you are looking for, Phil's wisdom delivers you both principles and exact examples to allow you to grow your confidence in conversation.
Phil's lessons are applicable in business and to many of life’s big moments. Whether looking to secure a job, close the sale, or help a friend, or loved one see things from another point of view – the ability to influence others is a universal skill.
To learn more about Phil Jones visit, https://www.philmjones.com/exactly/
Ben sits down with Phil Jones, author of Exactly What to Say: The Magic Words for Influence and Impact.
If you have ever found yourself lost for words, or have come away from a conversation without the result you are looking for, Phil's wisdom delivers you both principles and exact examples to allow you to grow your confidence in conversation.
Phil's lessons are applicable in business and to many of life’s big moments. Whether looking to secure a job, close the sale, or help a friend, or loved one see things from another point of view – the ability to influence others is a universal skill.
To learn more about Phil Jones visit, https://www.philmjones.com/exactly/
Good morning! Good afternoon! Good evening, wherever you are! Welcome to the new edition of Insights. This one's actually really exciting for me, because I get to interview Phil Jones, who wrote the book, "Exactly What to Say". What I loved about this is: especially for our sales team and our support teams globally, it's not a sales motivation book. It's just teaching you how to engage, and influence, and persuade. And it's just... Everyone should read it. Actually, I'm going to take it back. It doesn't matter what you do in any organization. This book could really help you, because it's how you put things in context. So, before we jump in, Phil - what made you write it?
Phil M. Jones :What made me write this book? I guess the biggest thing that made me write it is: in my experience today of being an entrepreneur since I was 14 years of age, and then having worked with literally thousands of professionals who find themselves toe-to-toe needing to influence people. Or be it motivation, vigor, product, knowledge - all those things are remarkably important. The biggest difference that I kept finding between people who did great, and people who did okay was, those that did great found the right words at the right time. They knew that. And much of my coaching work, and my training work, was helping people find the right words. I kept seeing patterns and wanted to be able to distill it. And I've learned that some people are good at buying books, not too many good at reading them. So, I figured if I could put them into a short, succinct publication, I might be able to transfer some of that knowledge to others.
Ben Chodor :I love that you said that. It's funny - our global CEO once used the term when I was in a room, and he goes, "Words are important". So, after you explained something, he really looked at the person and it was like, just remember, your words are important. And people forget that.
Phil M. Jones :You bet.
Ben Chodor :So let me just ask - before I jump in my first question, entrepreneur at 14, what was your first business?
Phil M. Jones :I had a car washing business when I was 14. And by 15, was making more money than most of my school teachers.
Ben Chodor :Wow, that's awesome. Second business?
Phil M. Jones :I then built maybe six or seven other small businesses around that through my teens. And then at 18, I got a proper job, queue jumped university, and found myself in a grad program for a big retailer in the UK; 18, leading teams.
Ben Chodor :Did you always find that words were important?
Phil M. Jones :Yes, but I didn't know.
Ben Chodor :Okay.
Phil M. Jones :I thought that being polite, being courteous, earning the right to be able to create a recommendation, was important. I learned very early on in life that if you do not ask, you do not get. And perhaps one of the biggest reasons that almost everybody is failing to achieve what I know they're capable of is their failure to ask. And if I was to probably retitle the book to something that would have sold far less, I should have titled The book "Exactly How to Ask". And it's our ability to control conversations through questions that is the key. But I think people want to know what to say, you know? It's fear of asking that stands in the way of a lot of people achieving things.
Ben Chodor :I think what ruins most sales people - not most sales people, non-successful salespeople - is that people are really scared to ask for the business.
Phil M. Jones :Always.
Ben Chodor :Yeah.
Phil M. Jones :Always.
Ben Chodor :Which is mind boggling to me. I'm a big believer; starting a couple companies, going out and raising money, I used to use the term, "I'd prefer a swift no than a prolonged yes".
Phil M. Jones :Right.
Ben Chodor :Just put me out of my misery, tell me you're not interested, and let's move on.
Phil M. Jones :I find it fascinating when people say, like, "I lost the sale". Or, like, you lose your car keys. And that's because you used to have your car keys you don't lose something you didn't have.
Ben Chodor :I love that. Alright, here's the first question. I love your idea that salespeople are professional mind maker-uppers. But if we're all salespeople in life, how do you recommend people guide others to turn indecision into decision?
Phil M. Jones :Okay. Well, I think the enemy of Yes is not No - the enemy of Yes is Maybe. Indecision is the thing that stands in the way and stops people moving forward more often than not. One of the things that we can do often to better help people in the decision making process is, to either show them something from a different point of view, get them to see something for themselves, or break a big decision into a series of small decisions. All three of those tactics sound remarkably simple. But they're harder to be able to implement in real life and... Take the first one, of getting somebody to see something from from a different point of view, right? Like, I've got a a notebook here right now. And if I hold this notebook up in front of you, what do you see? You see a notebook? What do I see? I see a wooden pencil. Who's right? The answer is that we're both right, right? And this is what often happens in a conversation. The conversation becomes an argument, when what we really should be doing is not saying that I'm right, and you should write down you're right. We should be saying, actually, let's shift the vantage point of where we're looking at this from, towards something we're both collectively looking to achieve.
Ben Chodor :I love that. Can you give me another example of that?
Phil M. Jones :Let's give another example. So, give me a conflict scenario that shows up in your workplace, and we'll jam through that one.
Ben Chodor :So here's a conflict that would happen in our workplace. I do physical events. And... Man, I know what's happening in the world. I should do it virtually. But, oh my God, it's going to cannibalize our business. How do you talk to someone and go, you should think that doing it virtually isn't going to cannibalize your audience - it's just going to expand your audience.
Phil M. Jones :Well, what we have to prove, then - which is often the thing you're looking to better get towards - is to prove a fact they hadn't yet considered. So I might say something like, could it be possible that in the past, without having virtual programming, that there are some people who didn't see any of the events? Some important people that didn't see anything. So what we're looking at is the fact that, [because] you didn't have any virtual program in the past, you have actually minimized the exposure of the great content you're already invested in. So they see for themselves, and it actually has an impact. You know, would it be fair to say that there are some people that now might not come as opposed to...? And why would they choose to do that?
Ben Chodor :Because, now I don't have to hop on a plane. I can stay home. I don't have to miss my family. There's 1,000 reasons.
Phil M. Jones :So it would be their preference?
Ben Chodor :Yeah.
Phil M. Jones :And with it being their preference, would you rather deliver something to your employees, your team, your customer that was preferred to them? Or would you rather create something that was a bad experience?
Ben Chodor :No, you want a good experience.
Phil M. Jones :So we've got an option that some new people could be able to see this that they couldn't have done otherwise. We've got the chance that the people that do this in preference are going to be happier. And, also, how many of your existing audience participants will come to that event, regardless of weather conditions, regardless of economic climate, and regardless of what's been happening with any medical scenarios. Okay? But you'd still have enough to have an event, right?
Ben Chodor :Yep, probably.
Phil M. Jones :Okay. So what we're learning through this is that both is better.
Ben Chodor :Exactly.
Phil M. Jones :So, explain to me again why you wouldn't run virtual program?
Ben Chodor :I think I want to do a virtual program. And what I'm thinking right now, Phil, if this entrepreneur thing and this writing thing doesn't work out, there is an opportunity as an SVP salesman in our organization.
Phil M. Jones :I wanted to finish that example on purpose, because the mistake that many people make is they asked one line of questioning, they get one line of response from me, and what they say is that that is enough of the job, and then read into that. What you have to do if you want to get people to genuinely see it from a 360-degree point of view, you have to question from all 360 degrees - so they can box up all the angles. And if we're in this area of professional mind making-up, look at that thing that I did at the end. I threw down a challenge, and that challenge was explained to me why you wouldn't. Which you are then left with, like, uh? And if we want to put a psychology or strategy around this, I'm guessing that you, like many of those watching in right now, have seen the movie with Eminem - "The 8 Mile". That rap battle scene! So at the end of the movie, where he leaves the other person with nothing left to say and wins through default - that is a sales lesson! And many of us should take that approach towards our conversations, and not look to embellish the option of Yes. We should destroy the option of No. That's what that question should have been.
Ben Chodor :You're engaging! You're putting some of the onus on me, as opposed to: people don't want to be sold to, anyway! They want to be engaged!
Phil M. Jones :You're also assuming you might not be right. And that curiosity that is fueling the compensation, and, like, I'm in this scenario you created. I'm 98.6% certain the virtual program is a good idea, but I'm not 100%. There might be a scenario that says, "Well, actually, nobody in my staff has access to a device". There might be a, "Well, if people don't come to the event, then we won't run an event". Therefore, there is nothing to be able to broadcast virtually, right? There might be some of these things that could create a reason that this is a bad idea. And we're looking for them.
Ben Chodor :I love that. All right, I want to jump into the next question. Negotiation is another area that I believe people have a tough time mastering. And that keeps a lot of them from getting what they really want. What words can I use to help people negotiate more successfully?
Phil M. Jones :This is a giant question. I mean, the whole book is an example of words that would allow people to be able to [negotiate successfully].
Ben Chodor :You know, actually, before you jump. This is the crazy part - I was telling Phil this before. I started reading the book, and by the time I got to page 30, I already rabbit-eared like 12 pages, 13 pages. So, you're right, the whole book! And I keep on going, like, oh my God, this works! This works!
Phil M. Jones :If we're to try and put an answer around that question, I think it's a belief system more so than getting the right words. And then the book is full of precise sets of words you can use, but really each set of words talks towards an underlying principle. And it's the ability to execute that principle that gets results. The principle I think the book encapsulates as a whole is that prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. So we put it into that medical concept. If you walked into the doctor's and he said, "Take these pills. They're brilliant" - like, why? Whereas if they explain to you after asking some questions, running some symptoms and some tests, and these are the pills for you, you're like, "Okay, boss".That's what happens. So, negotiation comes from your ability to earn the right to recommend. I think that's what selling is - is earning the right to better make a recommendation. If you're looking for the right words, anytime you're going to recommend anybody anything, what you should look to better say is because of the fact that you said. Because of the fact that you said blank, blank and blank, it's for those reasons, what we'd recommend is blank, blank and blank. That's what we should be looking at assess, because of the fact that you said [that].
Ben Chodor :I love that. That's awesome. I mean, even when I'm doing an interview, it makes me think of situations I've been in. So another area that I love that you talk about is - and I talked to my team about it - [is] how do I drain negativity out of my organization? I'm one of these people. My superpower is that I have positivity. I think that's what's helped me most of my career. But I think, in general, people come from a place of negative as opposed to positive. How do you change that?
Phil M. Jones :Okay. And again, when we're talking about some absolutes, something is either negative, or it's positive. I think what we're saying is how do we make something more positive and less negative? And the thing that you always want to question to somebody is to move them to a position of doubt. So, like, we've seen it in various chapters of the business world, right? Everything is awful! The economy's in crisis! Customers are not spending - and we make these absolute statements. They're absolutely not true. So what we have to do is to question the truth. So, you know, you say that customers are not spending in this area. Is that all customers or some customers?
Ben Chodor :Well, it's some customers, obviously.
Phil M. Jones :Okay, so that would mean that some customers are spending?
Ben Chodor :Yes, I assume so.
Phil M. Jones :And where are you spending the bulk of your time? Are you spending the bulk of your time with the people you know aren't spending, or are you putting energy and effort into the opportunity?
Ben Chodor :No, I'm trying to persuade the people aren't spending - which is wrong, right? So...
Phil M. Jones :So, what do you think your competition might be doing right now?
Ben Chodor :They're spending their time with the people who are spending?
Phil M. Jones :Are they better than you? Or worse than you?
Ben Chodor :No. No one's better than we are.
Phil M. Jones :You sure? Because their behavior right now would say that have a better line of thinking.
Ben Chodor :Yeah, you kind of got me in a corner.
Phil M. Jones :Okay. So the good news is that we understand that there is a giant group of people over here that are probably not worthy of our effort right now. But the better news is...
Ben Chodor :Right. There's opportunity.
Phil M. Jones :What there is is that there's a person in this area of the world for this stuff to go out. And the technique we're talking about there is twofold. One is the ability to challenge somebody's existing point of view, and help them realize that what they were thinking was wrong. But, also, allowing them to save face in that - not doubling down into that and saying, "You're bad for thinking that". Bounce up. You got to bounce them real quick. So let's accept a new truth - bang! Hit the wall, bounce in a new direction, and then label the new direction. The good news is that we now know something that we didn't previously know. The better news is we now know where to focus. And then what we can do is we can start to better take people into a new, more positive direction at any given point in time. And I think this labeling of the good news, followed by the better news, is a sequence of words that we can then rinse and repeat for 1000 different sets of circumstances.
Ben Chodor :How do you advise after someone reads a book? How did they exercise this? Okay? Because it's not like reading once, and now I'm gonna go into every meeting.
Phil M. Jones :Such a great question. And and I get asked this question a lot. The worst thing about me putting this in a book is that it shouldn't really be a book. It's not "I read that". The majority of business books you read, you get through maybe 45,000 words; you've got one to two key ideas, you've got a load of reinforcing principles - they'll help you understand what you couldn't understood from the cover or the back cover. And that's a good thing, because it's just really sweating an idea. This is a book full of tools. And the only way you get to learn how to utilize tools is by utilizing tools. So what I would say is: read it and then take the surface level stuff that resonates to you. Go play with it in your home life; see what you can do to get your spouse to take the trash out when they didn't previously. See what you could do to be able to get the kids to tidy their room when they wouldn't previously. See what you can do to negotiate with somebody that you're looking to buy something from for some home repairs. Play in the safe space. Then what I'll invite you to do is: there are 23 sequences of words in that book. Now that would mean that if you took one set of words a week, somewhere like six months in, you could have said, "How do I use more of that principle in my life?". And if you do this with a buddy, you do this with somebody else you work with, now what you can do is reinforce that over six months. And I know there's 26 weeks in six months, but we can't work everybody all the time. What I would do is in the second six months, I do the same again, but see how far what you've done is evolved. And my goal is that I don't want anybody saying, "I'm using Phil's magic words". I want somebody adopting this is just the way in which they communicate and forget that they got it from me. And that's how much they need to work it.
Ben Chodor :I think, two of the best magic words - or easiest ones to practice - are the "just imagine". Right? Because I've started to use that since I read the book. Just saying. Because, I know in my life when someone goes, "Hey! Imagine if you could do this", the first thing my mind does is I imagine that it's an easy thing. And it sort of breaks the tension in the room because I'm not forcing a thought on you, I'm just saying "imagine". And you might imagine and go, "This is awful. I don't want to imagine that". And that's okay. Or I might imagine. And the other one is, how would you feel if I could do this? And you go, "Would that make your life easier?" And, no - it won't. So that's great. But at least you're putting the thought out there. And it's easy to incorporate it in anything we do.
Phil M. Jones :Psychologically. with those two examples of just imagine and how would you feel: what you're dealing with is you're dealing with this ability [for] people to explore possibilities in a safe space of play. So the second I say, "Just imagine", we're talking about a hypothetical set of circumstances. The second I make something hypothetical, what I can then do is bring that back into reality. We're all better at making decisions in an environment that isn't made up. The second example of how would you feel if is based on the fact that almost every decision is made for emotive reactions before logical ones, right? That typically kicks up, too. So if you want to trigger an emotion, our standard challenge is that that emotion only comes into play after the fact. If I rephrase the words with "How would you feel if...", I've created a conditional future feeling. And a conditional future feeling means I get to feel a dose of the feeling I would feel after the thing without having done the thing, meaning I'm more likely to do the thing.
Ben Chodor :So... Alright, so I was going to go a little deeper. Your magic words really are things that are going to trigger my subconscious when we're talking to them. So, it is, really. There's an element of science to it. It's not just the method and my style, which again, makes it more conversational, as opposed to, "Hey, I've got 30 of these. You want to buy it?" I love that it's triggering something.
Phil M. Jones :All it's doing is using existing pathways that are already there. Like, people will use their GPS or Waze or something else to find the fastest route to get from A to B. All I'm using is pre-programmed systems that sit inside people's thought process for decision making and taking [the] path of least resistance.
Ben Chodor :I love that. All right, we're gonna go back to that, but I want to ask - so the other one is important because I'm a big believer in persuasion. And I had Lee Carter; he wrote a book about persuasion. And it's a great book, but when people think of influence or persuasion, some immediately associate the words with manipulation. What do you see the difference between the three words are?
Phil M. Jones :Okay, the difference between the three words. I think, firstly, you've got two words that sit in one camp, but one that sits completely foreign and different is [that] we're all in the business of persuading and influencing others to be able to do things all the time. The thing that sits between persuasion and influence and manipulation is equality. And that quality is integrity. That's the missing word that sits between the two. And you know, Peter Parker once said that with great power comes great responsibility. And for those who don't know, Peter Parker was Spiderman. The same is true when you have these kind of tools to your disposal, right? You can use them for good; you can use them for evil. I cannot decide what somebody goes on to better do with this. But if your work lacks integrity, and you're not prepared to be able to wake up the next day and stand by the decision that you help somebody make, that isn't the work that is in question - that is the integrity of the human that is in question. And that's where manipulation comes in. Fortunately, now we live in a world that's very different. And I'm going to jump towards something I don't normally talk to in interviews. In the world of sales. the thing that gets celebrated is this hero moment. This, let's high five, we took the money, ring the bell. cha-ching. And if you look at the movies that celebrate this, in almost every example of a movie that celebrates that in today's world, if they behave that way, within four weeks, they would be out of business because there was no integrity behind that offer. They were selling fresh air. You know, sand to Arabs is something that isn't going to be a viable business strategy. And this is what makes people hate salespeople. Yet in today's world, actually, if you have integrity in the work that you do, and you're prepared to wake up and deal with the promise of the ghosts tomorrow, the month after, six months after that, then guess what happens? You're in great shape. You build a great business because reputation matters more today than ever before. And it's funny with this little book. You know, we've got nearly 1,000 reviews on Amazon, and some of them are one-star and when I got those originally...? And then I learned that actually, they were viewing it through the wrong lens. They were thinking that this was a tool for manipulation. And that was never in my mind for a single point, I just assumed that most people are good people. And I think that when you work with good organizations, you have good products. Where you have a good team around you and you genuinely care about the result of the result of the result, that you're helping somebody else go on to achieve, these are tools that just help you get there faster.
Ben Chodor :They get your message through.
Phil M. Jones :But they won't allow you to make a bad idea [into] a good idea. They won't allow you to be able to get somebody to buy the wrong thing and then be pleased about it tomorrow. They'll just allow people to be able to see your value, choose you as opposed to somebody like you and make a decision faster, or stop procrastinating in the decision.
Ben Chodor :And that's it. People like to buy from people they like or can relate to.
Phil M. Jones :People like to buy. Period, right? The rest of that is true, but we actually like spending money. We like making decisions. We feel empowered.
Ben Chodor :I think that's so spot on. Right? It gets me to keep on thinking, but I want to get to more questions. You make an interesting point about motivation. It's that people are motivated by either avoiding loss or acquiring potential gains. But we work harder to avoid loss. Why are we so afraid of loss? I've found in my career, every failure makes me- It's not how hard you get hit, it's how fast you get back up. Right?
Phil M. Jones :Right. What? Why are we so motivated by failure? I mean, put it this way, right? We are here in New York City. Right now, I'm going to create a simple analogy. We are, what? Like, on the third storey right now of this building? If this window across the way right here was wide open, and what I could do is I could attach a steel-braided wire here, and I could attach it to the building that is 150 yards away from here as well and I could perfectly fix it here and perfectly fix it across the way. We're only three stories high. I'm wondering if when we're done, how do you feel about running to the other side? I pressed the wire. My guess is you're, like, "No, thank you!". I'm like, "What if I give you 10 bucks?". You're like, "It doesn't change a thing". I say, "What if I give you 100?". You're like, "Still? Heck no", right? I could go to 1,000; I could go to 50,000. I could keep raising the number there might become a point-
Ben Chodor :50,000. I think we'd think about it.
Phil M. Jones :You'd be like, "Is there a harness? What else is involved?"
Ben Chodor :Three floors? Or am I just going to break a leg? Right? Okay.
Phil M. Jones :Right. Now we start to think about it. It [had] to reach the highest level of comfort to get you to do that. If what we have is the fire alarm goes off, there's smoke bellowing through this door out here, and the only way out is through that window...
Ben Chodor :I'm running!
Phil M. Jones :You would go in straight for it. And I don't know a clear example of being able to say that we will always move when we're uncomfortable. Yet when the gift or the price is to be more comfortable, we ask more questions. And this is just standard human behavior. When you then look and say how do I use that to get people to move to create motivation. what we should really look to do is to be able to lower the floor and raise the ceiling; to do both is to say if we do this, then here's the potential upshot. If we don't do this, then here's the potential risk.
Ben Chodor :Risk and reward, right? Just weighing the risk and reward.
Phil M. Jones :But the mistake that most people make is they say well this is where you're at right now if you choose us this is how much better already. What they don't say is if you don't choose us, this is how much worse it could be, too, and they don't create this need to move. And all that's meant by the word motivation is a reason to move. My viewpoint would be that if the reason was big enough, that you can get just about anybody to do just about anything. And it is just your ability to be able to find that reason.
Ben Chodor :Alright, so which leads me to the next part of that; same type of question. Most people are just scared rejection. Why [are] people so scared of...? Like, I said before I prefer when I go if I was raising money for something, swift No over a prolonged Yes. Let me go on; let me figure out who else can I get it from so I have enough confidence in what I'm doing. Why is everyone so scared of rejection?
Phil M. Jones :Well, this fear of rejection thing is real, right? I hear it everywhere I go. I've trained over 2 million sales professionals. It's come up in every every conference I've ever run. People have said the reason I don't ask is because I'm fearful of rejection. The only thing I get them to see is that. firstly, have they been rejected by somebody they care about in the last seven days? Maybe you said let's go here for dinner and they said, No, thank you. Maybe it was like, I wanted to go here on the next vacation. They said never. I don't - it could have been fun in the bedroom. Like, not tonight, honey. I don't care what it was - we face rejection in dozens of areas of our life. And more often than not, we just accept as part of life and we kept moving on. It doesn't stop us asking for the things we want, right? Yet in business, we become so fearful of it, we fail to ask. I asked people are salespeople born or made? People try and convince me they're made, but my experience is every three year old is pretty good at asking for things. Like they're not worried about you saying, "No, thank you". And what happens is they'll then do whatever it takes to get to a position of getting what they want. So life churns it out of you. You start to learn things like, it's rude to ask. "I want" doesn't get; that you start to be able to consider the manners and the courtesies around asking, even though that they are only partially true.
Ben Chodor :I think it's even harder than that. I think it's beaten out of you along the way.
Phil M. Jones :It is! It's absolutely beaten. But rejection is part of the game. I think we shouldn't be fearful of it, we should be accepting of the fact that it is and people are allowed to say no. And when they say no, you have to program your little voice up here to say, when they say No, what they're actually saying is "No, thank you very much. Not at this precise moment in time". It doesn't mean that it's No forever; doesn't mean that it's No personally aimed at you. It just means that either the timing wasn't right, which is more often than not actually the truth. Your timing was wrong, or it's just there isn't a fit at this moment. And I think we should accept that. And the fear thing is true too; is that we do find ourselves fearful because people feel pressured by quotas and possibility is still quite comfortable. If I've got a pipeline of 35 Maybes that are worth $30,000 each, my pipeline is circa a million dollars, and my quota is 350. I'm still feeling that I've got this. But the second that I find out some of those are No, it feels pressured. And we're all happy to play in this space of possibility. Only the brave are to say I'm going to work in what's really true. You ask a roomful of professionals, who is going to be a successful multi millionaire entrepreneur in the next decade? Most of them are like "Me!". So they mean all of them. But only very few of them will go on to actually be able to achieve success in leadership positions or through financial growth. And they're the ones who are prepared to be brave. My only confidence that I get from all of this is I don't wish everybody else was better or wish that everybody else was less fearful of rejection. Because if everybody else was better, it'd be harder for me. I just choose to be one of the few that I prepared to be able to say rejection is part of the game. Let's move through it. Let's move past it, and know that a No is only a "No, not today".
Ben Chodor :It's true. I think it's one of the things that's been bred in a true entrepreneur. We know we're going to fail more than we're going to succeed, But we're going to get up and we're going to do it again. And I'd rather have the chance to be on the journey than not be on the journey. And I think you're really missing out on something if you don't put yourself out there. I mean, I could go back to, like, being in college and going into a bar and being scared to walk up to a girl, right? I mean, that's the worst at 20 or 19. The worst rejection in the world is someone saying, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to date you, because you just feel miserable about yourself.
Phil M. Jones :But it's not as bad as you deciding that's the girl you want to date. Not getting brave enough to be able to ask, telling everybody else that's the girl that you want to date. Still not getting the courage to go and ask; building reputation towards this is going to be your girl one day, letting it sweat out over a three year period of time in college, finally getting the courage to be able to ask and finding out that she's engaged to somebody else.
Ben Chodor :You missed that whole opportunity of "might have been".
Phil M. Jones :And, you've now got the reputational issue; the fact that you didn't find out for yourself.
Ben Chodor :And I think you're going to take that through life, every day of your life, right? It starts as a kid - if you don't ask. And then as a teenager and young adult, if you don't ask, you can't say, "Oh, now that I have a sales job, it'll be no problem to ask". Then you fall back into what you are.
Phil M. Jones :All you have to do is to be prepared to deal with the consequences of them saying No; if you can look at that and say, Well, what are the consequences of them saying no, what would I do instead? If you've looked at that, and you stared the monster in the face, and you're okay with it, asking becomes so much easier.
Ben Chodor :It still doesn't make it easy, right? You still should always have the butterflies, if they say No. But you just... It's how you deal with it. Right? If you don't ask you don't know. It's fascinating, because I look at just like employees in our organization and go, it's amazing the ones who will ask and how successful they are. And the ones who don't want to ask, but you know they really want to ask, and it's okay. It's, you know, ask! What's the worst someone's going to say is? It's No!
Phil M. Jones :And, "No, not at this moment".
Ben Chodor :Right. It's not a permanent No. Well, when I say other things. Don't close the door because someone says No, just understand that it's at the moment. All right. I got two more questions for you.
Phil M. Jones :Go ahead.
Ben Chodor :I agree that success in any aspect of your life cannot be achieved without support from others. How do we ask for the small favor of help to succeed?
Phil M. Jones :Well, there are 1,000 ways again that you could ask for help from others. And being brave enough to ask is probably the important thing. From the book, we give an example of where you can ask just about anybody just about anything and get a unanimous Yes, before they even know what that thing is. You just positioned it back on me there. And that was the request of a small favor. The request of a small favor almost gets that conditional Yes before your next ask. It's a stepping stone before the island, and is the bridge before you get to where you really want to go to. But now that they've said Yes to that thing, you're in great shape. The timing to ask is probably more important than anything; what we're looking for is a moment in our ask, but the other person feels indebted to you. Moments where other people feel indebted are either when they express things like gratitude. So when they say things like, I'm really thankful you have just done, it's a great time to ask because they're feeling indebted. Or when they are perhaps even more clearly feeling indebted, where what they're saying is, you know, I'm sorry that we're in this situation. I'm sorry that I let you down. I'm sorry you're in for that way 'round, is that that can become a great way to ask. And instead of the one punch ours, yeah, we have to tease our way towards that, which is, hey, look, is there a chance you could do me a small favor? And they'll say Yes.
Ben Chodor :I find that, most people, if you ask them the right way, everyone wants to mentor and help. Generally, we all want to pay it forward in one way. But asking in the right way for it doesn't sound-
Phil M. Jones :Yeah. And the hardest thing about writing a small book like this is how much you leave out. So I shared something that's not in the book, and I think it's something that we can all learn from from this question here, which is that when you're asking somebody to be able to help you, the best thing for you to ask for is the one thing that everybody loves to give. And the one thing that everybody loves to give is their opinion. So when you're looking for the help and support of somebody else, ask for a small favor. They're gonna say Yes. Then you say, hey, I'd really love your opinion on something. Now, all of a sudden, you've whet their appetite you lay towards their ego. What you've said when you ask for somebody's opinion is that you respect them higher than you respect others. And therefore you've created an internal desire in them to want to be able to lean in and want to be able to do more for you. So the opinion question is one that's remarkable.
Ben Chodor :It works on me every single time. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's internally inside the organization, or even on places like LinkedIn, how people approach you on LinkedIn inbound mail. They're all trying to sell you. But if someone truly says, "Hey, I'm trying to break, do you have a piece of advice?". If they ask it in the right way, your natural thing is short - let's talk.
Phil M. Jones :And let's unpack that as well. The difference between advice and opinion? See the trouble when somebody asks you for advice, is they're saying what do you think I should do? When I asked for opinion, what I'm saying is, what would you do if you are in my shoes? And you're gonna get a greater level of response because now all of a sudden, when you ask for my opinion...
Ben Chodor :I'm gonna tell you what I would do as opposed to...
Phil M. Jones :Giving it freely without consideration of your lens. Whereas you ask for advice, I'm a lot more responsible for what you then might get over that.
Ben Chodor :I like that. Before I get to my last question, what's your favorite word?
Phil M. Jones :My favorite word? I think it's probably become "exactly" through the years because it's become sequential through my brand with this series of books. I have a bourbon called "Exactly What to Drink". It shows up in dozens of social comments where people now struggle to use the word exactly without it line by line. To me, I'm trying to find a way of taxing it. Maybe like a cent? Maybe like a dollar?
Ben Chodor :I love that!
Phil M. Jones :Whenever somebody uses the word exactly that it pays royalty back towards me. So that has become my favorite word. And through living with it for so long has been a fun thing.
Ben Chodor :All right, your're a new father; you have one year old twins. Favorite part about being a dad?
Phil M. Jones :Favorite part about being a dad is having a reason to work that is beyond anything I ever understood.
Ben Chodor :I get that. And unconditional love. With the book, [are] there any tactics in the book that you use on your twins?
Phil M. Jones :Not yet. Not yet, but there may be a few that I use on my wife or family that around that. And the worst thing about writing a book called "Exactly What to Say" is how it impacts on your personal life. But you have to be all bets are off most.
Ben Chodor :That's right. Exactly. All right. What's your Uber rating, off the top of your head? Oh, I'm 4.76. Okay, I'm a 4.68. So, you know, funny about that - I've asked a couple people this. I think it's a new interview question that I asked more when I'm hiring people, because it's a way to judge. Like, if you're a 4.40 or a 3.90, like, why? What's wrong with you, you know? So that and asking people what their Fica score is would be an interesting thing. Why do you have good credit or not good credit? My last question for you is: who would you say are some influencers that are really good out there?
Phil M. Jones :Who are influences that are really good. Narrow the question for me a little.
Ben Chodor :Who's a master influencer? Are the people that you see - I don't know, it could be an actor and activist. A politician. It could be a business leader that's really good at getting their message out and influencing others.
Phil M. Jones :I think there are so many to be able to lean into to be able to choose from. Whether you agree or disagree with any of their political persuasion, the current president of the United States of America is a master influencer. Whether I like that fact or not is different. You are looking at people. I think Oprah is, without question, somebody that is learned to be able to influence with integrity over a sustained period of time and I can stand up and have admiration towards that. I think we look at people who have influenced the nation's thought process around the restaurant industry or the food people like Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver for my country, have looked to gather influence into the schooling system, etc,. Huge admiration towards those people. I think Michelle Obama is a incredible influencer who's taken a position that was a backseat and turned it into a front seat position of influence, and again has done it with integrity. The list is huge. And then some of the ones that are the most masterful are the ones that nobody sees. They're the ones that exist in the background, in the shadows. And I think for many, if you were to look at perhaps even the most influential people in your world, it was probably your grandma. Or Clancy Jean. Or Uncle Jimmy, right? Somebody that just had the ability to keep everything together and get everybody then refocused on what really mattered at any given point in time. And those are probably the little heroes that don't get the spotlight as often as they should, but the ones that are probably changing the shape of the world more than others.
Ben Chodor :I agree 100%. That's awesome to think about that as an influencer. When you're watching someone give a speech, or even watching TV, do you think about the words they're saying?
Phil M. Jones :Of course!
Ben Chodor :Are you sometimes... You look at people and go, "Ahh. He gets it", or "Maybe you read my book", or...
Phil M. Jones :I can't stop. But the great stuff is I have an obsession that is definitely unhealthy about those facts. And let's take the speech one, and I'm going to give you all something that you're going to see this and you can't unsee it. Something that almost every speaker does in the world is when they're looking for audience participation, they will raise their hand and they will say, "How many of you?" when they're looking to better create some inclusion. Now the trouble when you ask a "how many of you" question is you've just asked everybody to look at everybody else. As opposed for them to be able to engage personally. The reframing of that question to "Who in this audience?" now all of a sudden, this is keeping everybody plugged in, as opposed to inviting everybody in there. So just one tiny example, but I see thousands of them.
Ben Chodor :So it's ittle nuances. This is great. I'm gonna look at things differently. Phil, this was incredible. This was like so much fun - it flew by. I can't wait to share your book with all of our employees.
Phil M. Jones :Pleasure!
Ben Chodor :Have a great day and congratulations on fatherhood.
Phil M. Jones :Thank you. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai