For the premiere of Season 2, Ben talks to Jimmy Blackmon, author of Cowboys Over Iraq: Leadership from the Saddle .
Jimmy is one of the most experienced military combat leaders in the United States. He has led high-risk missions all over the world and served as aviation commander during battles in Afghanistan - in which four Medals of Honor were earned. Jimmy’s leadership experience in the armed forces has led to a prolific career as a writer and speaker. His unique perspective contributes to his ability to motivate teams to work together purposefully towards a common goal; "be the leader you would desire your son or daughter to work for".
To learn more about Jimmy and Cowboys Over Iraq, visit https://www.jimmyfblackmon.com/books/
For the premiere of Season 2, Ben talks to Jimmy Blackmon, author of Cowboys Over Iraq: Leadership from the Saddle .
Jimmy is one of the most experienced military combat leaders in the United States. He has led high-risk missions all over the world and served as aviation commander during battles in Afghanistan - in which four Medals of Honor were earned. Jimmy’s leadership experience in the armed forces has led to a prolific career as a writer and speaker. His unique perspective contributes to his ability to motivate teams to work together purposefully towards a common goal; "be the leader you would desire your son or daughter to work for".
To learn more about Jimmy and Cowboys Over Iraq, visit https://www.jimmyfblackmon.com/books/
Good morning! Good afternoon! Good evening, wherever you are! And welcome to the show, "Insights with Ben Chodor". I'm actually really excited this week. One of the
reasons why is:I get to interview Jimmy Blackmon, whose book, "Cowboys over Iraq", was an incredible read. I actually read it in two days; two afternoons sitting outside in the sun. I loved it. I learned a lot about leadership. Incredible storyteller! You know, in fact, instead of me talking, let me bring Jimmy in. Jimmy! First, thank you for your service, sir. It is amazing what you and your fellow soldiers have done for our country. And it doesn't go unnoticed by me. And I really appreciate it. So I just wanted to first say thank you.
Ben Chodor:You don't have to thank me, I got to tell you one
Jimmy Blackmon:Well, thank you, Ben. thing before we jump in with the book: one of the things - and you had me at this - in the very beginning of the book, you start talking about when you first got to Iraq; and you sat around with a bunch of other senior leaders in there, and everyone was smoking cigars, telling their war stories. And I truly felt like I was there at that picnic bench, sitting there as people were looking at their cigars. Because, even when I go play golf with my friends, they do the exact same thing. Is it lit? Is it not? And the moment you have a cigar in your hand, it's time to tell stories. And it was amazing. How did it feel - now in hindsight after writing the book - when you were there, and they were all regaling in their stories? Yeah. So for me, that's at the beginning, as you mentioned. And so I showed up, actually, after the initial invasion had taken place. So those guys had created these bonds through in this crucible of war. And they've got all these stories that you know, that they love telling, and they're so exciting, but I'm not involved in any of those. So, as a senior leader coming in, it made me, you know, wish that I had been able to be there and be a part of that. But it also gave me some concern - okay, you know, how long are we going to be here? We had no idea. Am I going to get an opportunity to be a part of that conversation? Am I going to have an opportunity to be able to tell my own stories? And at that point, I didn't.
Ben Chodor:Yep. It's great. I mean, there's so many little things throughout the book that really struck me. You tell the story, also, about the troop - as the ground troop - at first not trusting their air coverage until they got to know; until they actually saw that. And I find [that], in business, it's the same thing. When I bring a leadership team together and new people come in, building a bond of trust doesn't just happen. It's something that has to be worked on. One of your quotes - or not your quote, General Petraeus's quote: "It is a military axiom that no plan survives first contact". I mean, when I heard back, my head kind of went" Oh, my God!" It's also the same thing in business, you know? You go down with this plan; the first thing you do, but the moment you're out there, and there's customers and competition, it's not the same thing. Why did that resonate with you?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah. So, we know that the plan; you know, I think it was Eisenhower said,"In peacetime, plans are worthless. But in combat, planning is everything". And it's kind of along those same lines of, we plan for the worst situation. We think, and we try to build flexibility. But then once, you know? The enemy gets a vote, and once the game is on, they're a living, thinking, breathing enemy. Just like in business, our competition gets a vote; pandemics get a vote, as we see; markets get a vote. And so, how do we build flexible, agile organizations that are unified by vision and purpose, and have a flexible strategy that very quickly, they can put inputs to adjust?
Ben Chodor:Do you think it could be taught? I mean, because we're reading the book. You could tell that the way your mind works, you know, you're thinking several moves ahead. You're very flexible. But do you think you could take anybody and teach them that same concept?
Jimmy Blackmon:So, you said anybody? And I believe I know. I've thought about this a lot. Not anyone. Some people, for example, just can't delegate and entrust their subordinates - which creates speed and agility. They just can't let go. It's a personality thing. So, they may be taught and they may understand it, but they can't do it. Others see it, and it's proven to them; you see the success of a Steve Schiller - who was my boss there. And others go, "Hey, this is working! What I'm doing is not", and they do change. So, it's a spectrum. Some folks learn and see it, and can go a little bit down that road; others, it's about risk aversion and accepting risk. As a leader, it becomes a challenge for many.
Ben Chodor:Is it easier when you go into a corporation and[put] your consulting hat on, and [take] a bunch of executives and [teach] them to be a little more flexible, or a soldier who has been taught just to do everything the same over and over again? In the book, when you talked about, I think it was your first night there, your shoes had to be lined up perfectly, even though you didn't think anyone really cared. But you knew; it would keep you up all night if you didn't. I guess soldiers are taught, you know, go down this road, follow and be flexible. Is it easier to teach someone business? Or is it just the person?
Jimmy Blackmon:Let's say my experience is generational. I'm 51 years old, my generation and older; a lot of folks, the old adage, "I's hard to teach an old dog new tricks" is very true. And so I meet a lot of senior executives that have been very successful that struggle with change. Our millennial generation - the Gen Z, which is now in the workforce - they're very open to change. And they're open to try a lot of, you know - they're very entrepreneurial, and they'll try new things, and just kind of roll with it more than my generation and older.
Ben Chodor:So, how do you break through to a group that's not used to being flexible?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah, I call them small victories - you've got to eat the elephant one bite at a time. Show them some success in other organizations, other companies in their industry; show them, you know, that the status quo for the last 10 years is not going to make you successful in the next decade. And, you know, what got you here is not going to take you to the next level. And it comes down to, really, today - especially with a lot of large, older companies - it comes down to these organizational characteristics; these traits that permeate throughout the organization. During the Industrial Era, we were very hierarchical and bureaucratic by nature. And it was ideal for its time and place. But the 21st century has fundamentally changed the environment in which we operate in. And those things that made us successful throughout the 70s, and 80s, and 90s - they don't work today.
Ben Chodor:It is so interesting. As part of Intrado, we're a bunch of different acquisitions. And some of the groups that came from larger organizations - they don't like to take risks. They don't understand when, I talk to them,"We're large, but we need to disrupt ourselves". So we need to think out of the box. And we need to use ingenuity and initiative. And you know, in the book, you even talk about how you guys retrofitted some of the helicopters, so they would work better in the Iraqi or where you were and better for combat. And I find [that] one of my biggest frustrations [is], how do I get through to people and go, "It's okay to disrupt what you know"?
Jimmy Blackmon:We're calling this the "Age of Disruption", right? And we initially thought of that as technologies and things, and now we're seeing that it's much more than that. This pandemic has forced us to take a unique look at ourselves, and we're finding out who's really important in our companies. You know, I had a an Executive Vice President of a Fortune 500 Company tell me,"You know, I think I could die and nothing would change. I didn't realize how how unimportant I really was."
Ben Chodor:Alright, so not to jump off the book, but since you brought it up - as we're going through COVID, when you look at everything, what does it make you think? And with your military background and everything that's going on, can you believe we're going through this?
Jimmy Blackmon:You know, the war, as I mentioned in the book- necessity is the mother of all invention. The war really sped up our learning curve; it forced us to question our assumptions and the way we had always did things. To plug Stan McChrystal, who wrote the foreword to my book, "Pale Horse"; in "Team of Teams" he talks about, you know, that we were getting outmaneuvered by an inferior enemy. And it was because all of our authorities were held at the very top of the organization. It made us slow and bureaucratic, which really caused us to assume more risk to the force because we were late getting there. We were behind shoot - we called it shooting behind the target. And, so, this pandemic, I think, you know, terrible that we're having to go through this, however, it is a forcing function to cause us to question many of those same things in terms of business. As we try to define the new norm, we're going to see that it's not a new norm that is a steady state - so we transform from the old version of us to a new version. But, it's a set of characteristics; we'll realize that some folks can work from home, some folks can't. Maybe, you know, commercial real estate probably going to take a hit, I think. And that means that we're questioning a lot of the assumptions we made; we're going to find some hybrid model of normal, but we're going to try and create organizations that when the next thing happens, whatever it may be, we're postured to be able to take advantage of that, [and] not be a casualty of that.
Ben Chodor:I agree 100%. All right. So with your background, though, are you more of a person I think we should be? Do you enjoy being in an office with others as opposed to working alone?
Jimmy Blackmon:Oh, yeah, I'm a people person. I'm doing a executive leadership series with a company now. I did the first cohort of their leadership in-person and I'm doing this one on Zoom. And it's just, you know, the ability to shake a hand, put a hand on a shoulder, look into the eye, read body language of everybody in the room - for me I thrive and feed off of that.
Ben Chodor:Me, too! I miss people. I'm going look down at my notes because I want to get your quote perfect. A phrase in the book that stuck with me was,"While war is common, it's not natural; it produces unparalleled bonds, a brotherhood forged in the heat of combat". Do you think we come together more easily the more difficult and harrowing the task is? And how do good leaders facilitate this?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah. So that quote - it's interesting, because [in] the first cut of the book, my editor came back and said, "Some people would argue that war is natural". And what I mean by that, to clarify, is: I don't think it's natural to the human - it affects us all. And it affects us all differently. So in my last book,"Pale Horse", I was sitting at my desk, and my doc came in. And he threw two pieces of paper down on the desk in front of me, and he said, "You need to understand this". I'm, like,"What is this?" And it was single-spaced, two pages. He said, "Every one of those lines is a soldier in your organization that I immediate, either medically treating or counseling for stress, and anxiety, and how this war is affecting them". As a leader, I become so focused on the mission- what we were doing - just because we were fighting every day. And so, we have to
understand that:the environment is stressful. I mean, what's going on in homes today? People are worried about: are [their] kids going to go back to school? Am [they] going to be able to get daycare? If it's some hybrid model of online learning and an in person? How can I manage that? Single parent families differ [from] traditional families. There's so many complexities that leaders are going to have to have the skills to be able to handle, that we have to be very open to everything - not just us. Everybody doesn't feel the way I feel, or handle stress in the way that I handle stress.
Ben Chodor:I agree. I'm just trying to spend a lot of time with my global executive leadership team; just asking them, "What are they going through?" And I do feel, like in our own way, we're going through our own war - our business is growing, because we do a lot of virtual and a lot of PR, and it's one of the most interesting things. As we fight each of the battles, whether it's technology, things that we're working on, whether it's employee things, whether it's customer things, I feel like we're building a stronger bond together, because we all have the same mission. And I think one of the things that everyone- since they're working [from] home from now - likes to know more than ever [is]: Why are we going up this hill? How am I going to get there? Now we're this hill - what's our next hill? They love knowing what the next thing is, because they can't look to someone to the left and right of them to sort of boost them up. And this is nice and it's nice seeing you - but this isn't any human interaction.
Jimmy Blackmon:No, I agree - these are new leadership challenges. How do you build that team? Those relationships? How do you unite between vision and purpose when people are displaced, when it is virtual? We can't underestimate the discussion that takes place after the meeting or before the meeting starts - just like conferences. You know, I'm a keynote speaker all over the world at these big conferences. It isn't just the seminar. It isn't just the speaker - it's dinner that night. That's where business and relationships and trust and those things take place that can't be done virtually. So it's a challenge. But you bring up another great point that Steve Schiller in my book , "Cowboys", was a master at - and that is this idea of intent. He spent a tremendous amount of time trying to communicate very clearly our vision, our purpose, and his"commander's intent" (as we call it in the military), so that everybody had alignment of what that vision was. And then he trusted and empowered them to make decisions based on that mutual understanding. And that's what we need to speed our businesses up today; to empower and trust subordinates to execute and make decisions based on that common vision and purpose.
Ben Chodor:The whole thing is[that] my job is to empower other leaders to make decisions, whether it's one down, two down, three down in the organization - and it doesn't happen overnight. But, since you brought up Schiller, one of the interesting things [was] you mentioned how he had this whole excitement, enthusiasm for innovation; that it was infectious, right? And before we go to that, it just made me think: you also mentioned that every time you were talking to him, he really made you feel like he was interested in what you say. And I know - I've spoken to a lot of people that I've reported up to, and I'm sure some of my team has had conversations with me, and they could tell I'm sending emails, and I'm not giving them 100% of their focus. Was he really like that? When you were with him, he was laying in on what you were talking about?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah! I laugh because Steve Schiller was a unique individual; he had this thing - just these little
things:when you would shake his hand, he would catch you off guard almost every time. He was known throughout the Army for this - he would shake your hand, and when you started to shake, he'd pull you off balance, and you'd fall into him. And it was really awkward. And, you know, if you knew him, and you around him a lot, it would get you, but little things like that, always. So that conversation then would always begin with a laugh, right? It would always begin on a lighter note; whether you were a private or you were, you know, his peer, he would do those little things and [be] very engaging. And he championed innovation and initiative. He knew that he had to get others to see that their peers were coming up with ideas; were innovating trying to make us better. And when he would reinforce that, they would go,"Hey, he is listening!" He does want to move the needle in terms of our readiness and capability. And so it made others eager to try new things. He did not see the world with a ceiling or a floor, I assure you - there were no walls in the building. He was open to pretty much anything. And that made some people uncomfortable. But, it caused him to be able to - at an unprecedented pace - make us more effective.
Ben Chodor:I love that. I love that. So, now, when you're doing your job with corporations, how do you instill that in a leadership team that you're working with?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah. So one client that I have right now; they are investing in a portion of the business. So they've identified this area that they need to create new products, they need to sell new products. And they've gone to great lengths to find the right leader of that organization. Number
one:they have not just thrown the hiring process out there. They're looking for the right types of people with the right skill set to think innovatively. And then they're championing this. So I think that's a really good model, especially if you have a very large business; you're not going to change the business overnight. But if you can identify areas, almost like your beta test, where you can show and prove these things, then it starts to cross pollinate across the business.
Ben Chodor:I love that. I want to jump because I have a couple more questions for you, and I know your time is very valuable. Let's talk a bit about the importance of morale and tactics to keeping it high. Right? I'm a big, big believer of revving up the troops, rubbing up the team, getting them excited, hearing them. But, you say it really boils down to people need[ing] to be heard. And, how do you enable that? How do you enable that in the military, that you could have enabled people to be heard when you're giving them orders? And how do you transition that into business?
Jimmy Blackmon:Yeah, so it kind of goes back to that listening. What I do on my leader behaviors and leader traits seminar that I do, one of the things I talk about, just to share this
example with you:we have a tradition in the military where every Thanksgiving, we (the leadership) dress up in our dress uniforms, and we invite our soldiers to bring their families and eat Thanksgiving dinner. And we (the leaders) serve them Thanksgiving dinner. So we dress up in our dress uniform, they bring their families, we feed them and they go sit down at tables throughout the dining facility. And then it's traditional that we (the leadership) roam around table to table, meet the children, the wife. And a question that's often asked is "How are you doing?" And I would get my leaders together before we did this, and I said, "They know whether you truly want to hear the answer to that question before you ever ask it. How are you doing? They know if you care". And so I would then tell my leaders [that] those young men and women are willing to die for you - all they ask is that you be worth dying for. And so I ask business leaders: be the leader you would desire your son or daughter to work for. Isn't that a fair litmus test? Be the leader you would want your own child to work for. When we engage people in that way, in a meaningful way, we listen to understand, not just to hear, we engage and they trust us - leader to lead, lead to leader. We can move organizations, and people get up wanting to come to work. You control your little corner of the world. And so you get to choose every day, whether it's a place people put the key in the ignition and say I'm going to work and we may have a bad day, but I work with good people and a good climate, and I want to be there and work with those people. Or they can put the key in the ignition go,"Ugh. Another day at work."
Ben Chodor:Listen, I said a lot. I do a weekly video to the team. And I say, you know, every night I go to bed wondering if I did right for my team, right? Because I'm responsible for 1300 people globally, and I need to make them feel engaged, empowered, motivated. And yet at the same time, I don't know if I'm always doing the right job. But so as you've gone through it in your career, and some of the soldiers you've worked with, Jeff, any anecdotes of how they have taken this ability to create morale motivate that you want to share?
Jimmy Blackmon:Well, it's humbling and very rewarding when guys that work for me now are taking over as battalion commanders of 400 to 600 soldiers brigade commanders. I had one that I emailed probably six times, two weeks ago, to look at his leader development program. And of course, he's modeled it after the one he went through when he worked for me - and that is very rewarding.
Ben Chodor:So let me ask you one last question: if you had to give a message to... I have 1300 people in my organization, but there's 8000 in the global organization, plus all the other people who are watching and listening to this, when they go to work every day, or you're running a team, like what are just like one or two things that they should be thinking about to motivate them or to keep morale up?
Jimmy Blackmon:I don't care how technologically advanced we've become - life is and always will be about people and relationships. It's the most important thing. I truly believe[in] engaging with people in a meaningful way, gaining their trust. And you know, we develop trust; you think of the
equation:Character times Competence equals Trust. Character, it's easy to lose, but it's hard to gain back if you don't have it. So, building a team of people of character, and then demonstrated competence, day in and day out performing, doing your part pulling your fair share of the load - that equates to trust and that is powerful in an organization.
Ben Chodor:I love that. And, a saying I just heard that sort of
resonates with me is:"A true test of a leader is how many leaders you end up making". And it sounds like, in your career, you've created a lot of leaders and our country's thankful for it. I'm thankful for it. And now you're doing it in the world of business. Everyone should read the book. It is amazing,"Cowboys over Iraq". It is a must read. Most importantly, Jimmy, stay safe. Thank you for your time. And again, thank you for your service, sir.
Jimmy Blackmon:Thanks for having me on, man.
Ben Chodor:Have a great day.
Jimmy Blackmon:You, too!