Insights with Ben Chodor

Conversation with Jim Joseph (The Conscious Marketer)

March 30, 2021 Ben Chodor/Jim Joseph Season 2 Episode 3
Insights with Ben Chodor
Conversation with Jim Joseph (The Conscious Marketer)
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Show Notes Transcript

This month Ben talks Marketing with Jim Joseph, author of The Conscious Marketer.

So what is a conscious marketer? It's a marketer, a brand or a company that is aware of what's going on in the world and as a result; is making a true difference in consumers' lives.  Jim and Ben discuss the ways the marketing industry is changing to meet the needs of a more conscious, engaged consumer and how brands are becoming true members in their communities, right alongside consumers. Jim talks about the tools he uses to navigate the ever-changing landscape of effective marketing and branding and explains how to market empathetically, actively, and with intent.

To learn more about Jim and The Conscious Marketer, visit www.jimjoseph.com

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Ben Chodor:

Good morning! Good afternoon! Good evening, wherever you are! Welcome to Insights with Ben Chodor. Hi! I'm extremely excited today for a couple of reasons. One is: we have now started syndicating our program as a podcast in Spotify and Apple iTunes and SoundCloud and anywhere - Google - anywhere you can get podcasts. Well, also excited because I get to share this with the global Intrado family. It's a book that was written by Jim Joseph, The Conscious Marketer, and kind of love it. First, I love the whole name, "Conscious Marketer". After reading it, I thought it was incredible. I've known Jim for a while. I've read some of his blogs. He's a very fascinating man, and I feel honored to have him on the show. So why don't I bring him on? And this is the weirdest part for me; Jim, this is only the second time I've done an interview - and we're a streaming media company - where I haven't been in a studio with the presenter in New York City. So it is very weird to ask questions this way using our own technology.

Jim Joseph:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for having me, Ben. It's great to see you.

Ben Chodor:

So, question for you. So, how have you been? You know, during all the COVID everything going on right now? Has it made you think differently about the world of marketing before we jump into the book or what has made you- What have you been doing with your time?

Jim Joseph:

It's been unbelievable. And I have nothing to complain about. I've got a job, I've got my health, my family is doing fine. So I literally have been able to focus on work and really focus on what effects this is having on our industry. And first of all, I'm amazed that our industry adapted to this so quickly. I mean, we were all working from home within what felt like minutes, but certainly within days, without really skipping a beat. But it's hard. It's really hard. It's not easy, not really being with people and brainstorming with them and problem solving with them. At first, it was a bit of a novelty and we were like, "Oh, we can do this" and it's wearing thin. I'm very much looking forward to getting back to seeing people and spending time with them.

Ben Chodor:

I am exactly like you are. Before we jump into the book, one of the other things I really loved about the book - and you mention it - I don't know if it was in your liner notes or somewhere in the book that you go, you like to write short, you know? Short chapters- you like to get right to the point. You don't like adding a lot of fluff. I think you said you're writing for entrepreneurs. Somewhere one of your first editors or publishers said, "Make it longer". And you're like, "No, make it shorter and more concise". And you make it conversational. I think it's spot on and I love that.

Jim Joseph:

Thank you. Well, you know, people read on the go now. They're reading while they're commuting. They're reading a little bit here a little bit there. Quick concepts. Think about it, try to apply it move on to the next one. That's sort of the the idea behind it.

Ben Chodor:

All right. And the other thing I want to talk about real quickly before we jump into the book - your greatest achievement isn't all your accolades, the Hall of Fame, everything else. It's being a dad. I think my greatest accomplishment in the world are my two kids, Rachel and Zachary. There's nothing in my life that compares to it. How do you even- I understand that your kids are most important, but how did you get to be about writing about being a dad. Also, this is something else you do?

Jim Joseph:

Right, right. Well, my kids are in their mid 20s. Now. So they've started their careers. One is in marketing, and one is actually a marriage and family therapist. So it is just unbelievable to see them not only grow up, but grow into these really cool human beings that are on a path to success, happy with what they've chosen to do. It's just really an incredible, incredible experience as a dad, as you know. And I did end up writing about my journey, because I had my children in the early mid 90s. I was a divorced, single, gay dad - back when none of that was taught. Wasn't embraced. It wasn't, you know, accepted. It wasn't even talked about. I mean, I felt so alone. I know, I wasn't. Looking back, there were probably lots of us around. But we didn't know that, and certainly society didn't embrace it. And it was a really unique challenge. And we all have our own unique challenges. So I'm no different that way. But it was a huge challenge to try to navigate, you know, parenting in a world that doesn't really want you to be a parent. So, I chronicled that really just to share my story. So other folks who have, you know, whatever struggle they're going through, can understand that they're not alone. And that lots of us are dealing with things and you just persevere and you move on and, you know, voil! You wake up one day and your kids are doing okay.

Ben Chodor:

I know. It's amazing. Mike, I have 25 year old boy/girl twins, so we had kids about the same time. '93 is when my kids were born. So, it's amazing. I'm happy that both our kids grew up without being attached to cell phones and social media in a lot of ways. I think they grew up a little bit purer. They might be the last group of kids ever to grow up that way.

Jim Joseph:

I like that much. Yeah, exactly.

Ben Chodor:

Yeah, exactly. So we lucked out - no cyberbullying when our kids... So, hey - quick question. What is a conscious marketer? And why is it so important today?

Jim Joseph:

At its very essence, a conscious marketer is: a marketer, a brand, a company that is aware of what's going on in the world, and very much takes into consideration how their customers, their consumers, whoever their constituent is, what they're dealing with in their life and taking it into account. It could be a social issue. It could be a political stand. It could just be something that's going on in the world. I mean, look at what's going on in the world right now. You know, marketers that are very conscious of that and are changing their behaviors as a result are going to win. And that's the essence of it.

Ben Chodor:

Were you always a conscious marketer, or did you cross a chasm at one point in your life?

Jim Joseph:

I think you definitely cross a chasm. I mean, it's funny because I'll work with my teams now. And they'll be like, how did you come up with that so fast? And how did you figure that strategy out so quickly? And I always say to them, "You're not born a marketer and you're not born a strategist - this is something you learn over time". And over time, I just learned the importance of really understanding your consumer. I started out at J&J; it got drilled into our head that you need to be on top of market research and consumer behavior. And over time, I realized just how important the subtleties are of that. And the subtleties of the last few years, as we're seeing brands take on and understand it. In some case, comment on social issues and socio-political issues. It made me realize that this is something that you really have to take into account. You can't be naive and not really understand your consumer and expect to connect to them. You just can't.

Ben Chodor:

So then it ties into my next question - so what's really the big difference between a brand and a product?

Jim Joseph:

I actually teach a class at NYU and it's the entire essence of the class. In fact, tonight's my first class for the for the summer semester. And so I'll try to pack in an entire semesters' worth of answers into one little sentence. The basic

essence of it is that:

a product or service delivers on a functional benefit. It does something for you. Chances are, it does what its competitors also do. The difference between that and a brand is not what a brand does, but how a brand makes you feel. And how do you feel when you use that product or service? How does it make you feel and how does it add value to your life? That's the fundamental difference. And all brands are products, but not all products are brands. In essence.

Jim Joseph:

It is,

Ben Chodor:

You know, you say that because- After reading your book, you use the brand that makes you feel, like- Scotch and You put it on and it makes you feel a certain way. I Soda is like your clothing brand. I don't know if your s irt is Scotch and Soda right now- feel the same way about FAHERTY- another clothing line. And I'm not wearing that right now. But when I wear their clothes, at my age, I feel really good. It just makes you feel some way. It's not a product. It's not a shirt. It just does something just a little bit different for me.

Jim Joseph:

Right, right. Well, what I always say is: in the case of Scotch and Soda, I need to wear a shirt. I want to wear Scotch and Soda. Need versus want. Product versus brand.

Ben Chodor:

Right, which is a great thing. And if you can get to that level, it's pretty amazing. You also touch on in the book; you talk about leaders and executives being a voice of a brand. I've said from day o e: part of my job running Int ado Digital Media as the pre ident of it is: I need to be ou in front touting and sp aking and blogging and wr ting and talking and doing th ngs like this. But it falls on a lot of deaf ears because a lot o my counterparts in other o ganizations don't. Where does t at fit in with what, you know, what you wrote?

Jim Joseph:

Well, I think we're seeing an action right now, actually, as we're watching brands and companies respond to this horrible crisis. And we're seeing CEOs step out in front - the really good ones stepping out in front, and talking about what they're doing, first for their employees to make sure that they're safe, and that they're well and that they're engaged and that they're able to work. And then their customers. Again, safe and well and able to use their products and services in an appropriate manner. That's coming from the CEOs or from very senior C-suite executives, as the voice of the brand. We're watching it right now. And the first movers are really getting a lot of attention. Marriott is a great example. The CEO of Marriott was one of the very first to step out and say, "Hey, we're taking care of our employees first. And we're also going to take care of you". And I think, you know, in prior years, you know, four or five years ago, you didn't see that as much. You know? You didn't see a CEO being the spokesperson of the brand, or of the company. Or, in some cases, the brand and the company being completely interchangeable, which is often the case now. You saw a celebrity spokesperson or a paid spokesperson or the Chief Communications Officer, you know? Now it's the CEO speaking on behalf of the employees, for the employees, with the employees. It's a great development actually coming out of all this.

Ben Chodor:

And I actually love it. Because when I see a CEO talking, whether it's on a show or whatever that person is doing, it makes me relate more. And you can tell, like, I'm a big person for looking in people's eyes. I know where they're coming from. And, you know, that's funny. Part of our businesses is we do a lot of earnings. So we bought some businesses out of NASDAQ, and we do more earnings streaming than anyone. And it's still audio - mostly - for earnings calls four times a year. And I keep on saying, "CEOs should do it via video", because when it's a good quarter, you could look everyone in the eyes and pound on the chest. When it's a bad quarter. I could look at you as a CEO, and go, "You have this under control. You know where you're going", you know? You can have empathy. You could have trust and there's no better way to build that than like what we're doing looking at each other.

Jim Joseph:

Yeah, exactly. And I think in prior years, but particularly before the last 18 months - and before all this has been going on - I think CEOs thought they had to be perfect. Like, they didn't want to be the paid spokesperson, or even the company spokesperson, because they were worried that not everything was perfect. And that while this over here was good, this on the other side wasn't as good. And, we've learned that that's actually being human. And being transparent, and being authentic - all those buzzwords. But the true meaning of is that they're being human. And they're showing progress. And consumers have also learned that companies aren't going to be perfect. They're not going to have everything right all the time- and that's okay, as long as what they're doing is contributing back to the world and offering a proper product or service.

Ben Chodor:

Good. Alright, now I want to jump to this because, you know? Jumping from, you know, the Boomers to Millennials in marketing. I mean, I can't think of a better title than"The Conscious Marketer" for that, because I don't think there's ever been a group that thinks they're more conscious than Millennials. How do you shift? Or, how do you change yourself? Because you've spent the first half your career marketing to the Boomers. And now you're making the shift to- They don't think the way we did when we were kids.

Jim Joseph:

Right! And now actually, it's shifting again to the generation coming after them again. Yeah, huge shift. And how we think about marketing with them - not to them, but with them. And a huge shift, getting comfortable with the fact that they're going to comment back, and they're going to criticize, and they're going to applaud. And they're going to shape your messaging. And they're going to take over your brand sometimes, and they're going to take over the brand messaging, and they're going to push it against their agenda. And it took us all as an industry, I think, a while to get comfortable with that. I mean, I can remember coaching clients on social media, where they were terrified to go on social media because someone was going to comment! And, I'm like,"But that's amazing!" That means they're engaged! And they care, and they want to see you do better! It took us a while to get there, but I think we're there. And the really progressive brands are the ones that, in fact, embrace that, and co-create with them, and give them what they want - which is change. You know, they don't want compromise. They don't want change. I write about it in the book. Like, why should I stand out in the rain on a corner trying to flag down a taxi that's going to be less than ideal, when all I got to do is dial it up from my home? I'll know exactly when it pulls up in front of my door and then I can pop in. And I don't even have to pay for it with my credit card because it's already going to get pre-charged! That's that mindset, you know? Like, I don't have to compromise. I can change this and I'll change it for the better, which is very sweet. I'm a millennial by heart.

Ben Chodor:

Really? Okay. I kind of like that. I don't know if I am. I think I have a lot of beliefs that they do. Since I have two of them that I'm a father to, I kind of relate to it. One thing I think about millennials is that you can't put them all in one box. You know? You can't just say it's an old generation one this way - and it's not. Because some of the smartest, hardest working people I've ever met are Millennials. And some of the, you know, people who just expect you to give them everything are Millennials. I think that was in every generation, you know?

Jim Joseph:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I rejected that whole notion when people were starting to say that about the Millennial generation, because I literally was like, I don't know any generation that wasn't like that in some ways. And that, you know, the amazing part about that generation is they are wise beyond their years. I mean, they are so far ahead of us in terms of, you know, what we knew and thought and did at their age. You got to respect that. I mean, it's pretty incredible.

Ben Chodor:

They do ask "why" a lot. And I kind of like that. I think when I was coming up in the world of business, I was scared to ask my first bosses"Why?". I think in this generation, they never have an issue asking "Why?". Why should I buy this product? Why should I do this? You know? So I kind of like that.

Jim Joseph:

Why should I care? Yeah, exactly. Me, too.

Ben Chodor:

All right. So I want to jump into this because this one is an important one to me. You dedicated a whole chapter on social listening. How is social listening contributing to new research and data for marketers? And why is it important?

Jim Joseph:

Well, I think the most important part about it is that it's timely. And again, going through this crisis, I think, has forced all of us - you know, me included - to really re-examine how we think about things, and social media gives you timely information and timely feedback on what you're doing. And, really a window into how people are living their lives. And we're going through right now as we're seeing people adjust to working from home, teaching from home, learning from home. Shopping, eating, socializing, dealing with financial pressures that they never thought they'd ever have to deal with. I mean, we're seeing it right now. And if we did traditional research methods to try to figure out how people would feel, this would all be over before we understood how they feel. So, social listening just gives you a window right now into what's going on and how people are feeling. And fortunately, we can then guide our marketing right now and adjust it and be conscious of it and give them what is going to add value. And, to me, that is the biggest benefit of social listening. It's right now! You can tap into it and alter and accommodate what they need.

Ben Chodor:

Yeah! You know, it's an interesting matter. We own a company called Notify, which is a media monitoring social listening tool that a lot of organizations use. And what I tell a lot of people is that it's not just about what the world is saying about you and your brand. It is also what they're saying about your competitors. So you should use this data as part of your marketing mix. So what is your personal opinion or your business opinion on the world of influencers, since we're talking about social and listening? Do you recommend brands hiring influencers? Or are you more about earned in the micro influencer?

Jim Joseph:

Both. Both, quite honestly. I'm a big fan of influencer marketing. I think in a lot of ways, earned media is the original influencer marketing, you know? Using someone else's influence to spread your message, whether you've earned it because it was newsworthy or you've paid for it in a partnership kind of program- I don't think matters as much. It's the notion that you're using someone else's influence and power to drive your messaging. And when it's done the right way, because the influencer truly believes in it and is a part of it and has co-created it, then it's really powerful. And I think we're going to see a big shift coming up (it's already started) towards more influencer marketing. And not big celebrities as influencers! We're going to hear even more so from, even not micro influencers, but, you know, every day normal influencers who are going through their lives just like everybody else, and what they're doing to cope. I think that's going to be a big shift. And we're seeing clients already, you know, moving away from celebrity endorsements, using their leadership as the spokespeople, and then using influencers to help spread the message. So I think it's going to be more and I'm a big, big fan of it.

Ben Chodor:

I agree. Alright, since I have you, I'm going to actually steal you for a second from my company, right? So our business and travel digital media brand has seen a huge spike because of virtual, alright? Just, like, thousands of percent. Just to give you an example, Jim - in January, and before that, we averaged between 300 or 400 inbound leads for our virtual technology. Since January, we're averaging up between 4,000 and 5,000 every month of qualified leads of organizations that are going,"Hey! Our event is canceled!", or, "We can't do this event! I can't reach my team!". And they're coming to us in droves, especially during the COVID pandemic, and our business has this hyper growth thing going on. As a brand, how do you balance keeping customers happy, educating them about your business and the challenges? I mean, what would a conscious marketer do in a situation where I am right now, where we have all this inbound, we need to educate people, we can't make everybody happy - what would a conscious marketer do?

Jim Joseph:

A conscious marketer would pick the ones that you really can add value to. And, a conscious marketer would understand the context in which they're inquiring about your product or your service. You know, why do they think they need you? Why do they think you're going to add value right now? What are you going to give them that will fill some sort of a gap or solve a problem? And because you can't solve everybody's problems, and if you've got more than you can get to, then pick the ones where you add the most value. And then that's how you build your authenticity. That's how you build your brand, that's how you build loyalty because you're not trying to do everything for everybody. You're trying to do for the ones that are the best fit, and where you're the best match. And you can really, truly add value beyond what your competitor can do or beyond other options for them.

Ben Chodor:

And for me, when this is over, I want to come out as a brand. Like, when you think of doing a virtual app, I want you to think of us in the mix, not just as one of the products or one of the solutions out there. So it's about being honest to customers. And, again, picking the ones you could help and not spreading yourself too thin, which is really hard sometimes for, you know, shareholders in an organization who just want you to keep on growing. You need to be mindful. I guess you exactly need to be conscious and that is one of the keys. Alright. I want to jump to the next question. How could the principle of your book be applied to a personal brand, right? How could team members who are listening to this, watching this, you know, build their own personal brand? What is, like, the first steps anyone could do?

Jim Joseph:

I'm a big believer that - and people disagree with me - but I'm a big believer that everything's a brand. Brands are brands. Companies are brands. Cities are brands. Countries are brands. People are brands. And if you behave as if you were a brand, and you think about how you can benefit your customer, and how you can build an emotional connection with your customer, then you're going to end up being a lot more successful in what you're trying to achieve. So I think at the very outset of creating your personal brand, you have to figure out what your own personal position is, you know? How do you want to position yourself - and I'm speaking more kind of professionally probably than personally - but, how do you want to position yourself professionally in your career and in your organization? But your positioning has to match what your organization needs. So it's got to be sort of this mutual position, where you're going to offer a benefit that only you can uniquely serve and that that company uniquely needs from you. It's a two-way street. And I, you know, in my classes at NYU, I talk a lot about building resumes and going on job interviews, and building your personal brand. And you have to think through for every interview, how can I position myself to this company to emotionally satisfy their needs? And then you'll probably do a lot better in the job interview.

Ben Chodor:

I love it. So, hey, for your NYU class, is this the first time you're going to be teaching it virtually and not physically in the classroom at NYU?

Jim Joseph:

Actually, this past Spring was the first time. We got about a third of the way? Maybe a little more than a third of the way into the semester and we had to switch; literally overnight had to switch to online teaching. I had never done online teaching. And it was hard. The first class was just a joke. I mean, I was awful. It was just awful. But luckily, the students hadn't really done it either. So we were kind of all awful together. And then, in the second class, I was a little better. By the third, I'm like,"Okay, I got this. I got this down. I can do it". It's a different experience, but you have to really work hard to keep engagement up. It's very easy to get passive on video. And, you know, you got to keep people engaged, particularly in a learning environment. So, but this semester, the summer semester, will be the first full semester.

Ben Chodor:

Right. You don't know if they're laughing at your jokes. You don't know if they're sighing, and you think you've made a mistake. You can't look at the whites in their eyes; you have no idea if they're paying attention. You know, I've been off and on in the streaming space in for the last 20 years, and in the media space. And for me, I am very comfortable here. I am good in front of a large crowd. But I actually think I'm actually more comfortable here because I get to really be myself and I'm not wondering what everyone else is doing. But I find that a lot of people have been really big or doing a lot of teaching or in person - moving into this world where you're by yourself, it's hard to get comfortable. So my question to you is, give me one or two benefits? Now that you're doing it virtually instead of physical? And what's the number one thing you can't wait to be back in the classroom for?

Jim Joseph:

I'll answer the second part first. The number one thing is just that feedback loop, you know? Of where you can see people absorbing and learning. And I think it's a little bit different teaching versus work, because it's my job to make sure they understand. And it's my job to make sure they learn. And it's all me. Yes, they take a part in it, for sure - they have to pay attention. But, like, my success is based on my activities. And I need some feedback, you know? Like, are they getting it? Are they nodding along, or do they appear to be absorbing it? The lack of physical interaction there makes that part really hard, you know? Do you dial up? Do you dial down? Do you go slower? Do you go faster? That kind of thing. But I will say that the online environment; what's been really cool about it is: it's much more efficient. You know, they're from all around the world. And it's been kind of fun. They're in Zoom. And it's been kind of fun like Zoom-ing in and out of breakout rooms. Like, you could very quickly and very efficiently mix up the breakout rooms and put them around. You don't have all that clunky physical stuff of trying- That part's been really good. You know, and sharing screens and doing all that has been wonderful.

Ben Chodor:

I love that. All right, so two more questions for you. Soon as this is over, and you're free to do anything, what's the one thing you can't wait to do?

Jim Joseph:

Go to brunch. Oh my god, I want to go to brunch. You probably can relate to this because your kids are of the same age as mine. You know, I never went to brunch, ever. We never went to brunch. We always had the kids. And they, you know, Saturdays and Sundays were more their activities. So, I didn't go to brunch until... I don't even know how old I was. Probably 48? No, older than that, even. I was probably 54 by the time I went to brunch. But now brunch has been become a bit of a staple. It's like a, you know, it's a relaxant, it's a stimulant. It's a social thing. So I'm going to brunch.

Ben Chodor:

Yep. What I wasn't thinking about that. That's one of the things; I can't wait to do that. All right, I've asked every single person I've interviewed this one last question. What's your Uber rating?

Jim Joseph:

It's low. It's 4.84. And, see - I knew it.

Ben Chodor:

Alright. I'm a 4.72, right? So if 5.00's the highest, 4.84 is not so bad.

Jim Joseph:

But, I'm slow. I'm totally slowing. I'm told it's because I'm on a lot of conference calls when I'm in the Uber and it's really annoying.

Ben Chodor:

You might want to check... But let me ask a question - if you are interviewing someone for a job, and they told you their Uber rating was like a 3.00, 2.00 - and they've been on a lot of rides. It's not just two, would you think twice about hiring that person?

Jim Joseph:

I would, because it's probably- It could be a reflection of how they treat people and how they treat others and how they expect people to be in service to them. So, I would, I would. I would seriously wonder.

Ben Chodor:

I'm looking forward to seeing you again. And Jim, thank you so much for everything.

Jim Joseph:

Oh, thank you. It's been a blast chatting with you. Thanks