Insights with Ben Chodor

Conversation with Amy Jen Su (The Leader You Want to Be)

May 03, 2021 Ben Chodor/Amy Jen Su Season 2 Episode 4
Insights with Ben Chodor
Conversation with Amy Jen Su (The Leader You Want to Be)
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Show Notes Transcript

Ben talks to Amy Jen Su author of The Leader You Want To Be.

As leaders there is no doubt that you have some days when you feel the positive flow; you're able to make a difference and achieve big goals. On days like this, you are having a Leader A day; being your best self--the leader you want to be.  But on other days, you get caught in a Leader B day; you go down a different, negative path, with pressures and doubts making you feel like a lesser version of yourself.

How can you have more Leader A days?  Amy's book focuses on five key leadership elements to help you become the leader you want to be with --Purpose, Process, People, Presence, and Peace--you can increase your time, capacity, energy, and ultimately your impact, with less stress and more equanimity.

To learn more about Amy and The Leader You want to Be, visit https://paravispartners.com/our-latest-book/

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Ben Chodor:

Hello, everyone! And welcome to the newest edition of"Insights with Ben Chodor", where I get the privilege of picking the minds of some of the smartest people that I've met along the way. All of them have one thing in common - they're all authors of books, which makes me really excited because I am an avid reader! I'm always trying to learn more. And I kind of go back and forth between fiction and nonfiction. Today, I'm really excited because I've gotten to be on panels with this guest; I've gotten to know her a little bit - And I'm a big fan! She's written the book, "The Leader You Want to Be: Five Essential Principles for Bringing Out Your Best Self Every Day". Amy Jen Su; you have to buy this book! It is really good! I was able to read the book in two sittings, which is pretty amazing, because what I have found during COVID is,[that] my ability to sit and just read a book has gone away; and pre-COVID I would be on a plane, and I'd finish a book on one flight to San Francisco or a flight to London. And then during COVID, being able to concentrate on a book with everything going on, I haven't been able to. But this is one of the books I was able to [finish] in two sittings! Why don't we bring Amy on? Amy, how are you?

Amy Jen Su:

I'm well; it's so great to be here! And thank you so much for that kind introduction!

Ben Chodor:

Listen, first of all- I love this. And one of the things I love, just when you read the title, is... One of the authors that I interviewed in the past said something that's always resonated with me, [and that] is: I want to be the leader that I want my son or daughter to eventually work for. Right? A leader that's not going to be easy on them, not going to be ultra tough on them, is going to be fair, but leave them with something. And as a leader, I've always prided myself on my goal,

[which] is:

I want to come into an organization and make it better than it was before I was there. But more importantly, if employees can take one thing that I did to their next venture or their next job, that nothing would make me happier! Because there's this saying that you die twice, right? You die the first time when you actually die, but you die the second time when they stop talking about you or mentioning you. And I just want to be the best possible leader. So why did you write this book? Most importantly?

Amy Jen Su:

Well, Ben, I really appreciate what you just said there, right? That [for] all of us, leadership really isn't a title. In some ways, we're all leaders of our families and our homes and our communities. As we have the opportunity to pause

and really think about:

who's the person and leader I want to be across those various domains of my life? And what's that impact and ripple effect? What do I want to telegraph out into the world? And so I wrote the book, because I personally, as a parent, as a leader, as a professional, sit in that question myself. I've had the great opportunity to ride alongside thousands of leaders over the last 20 years of being a coach, where I have been in conversation with people around that question. So it just felt like it was time to codify everything I had learned and heard across all these great people trying to make a difference and do the right

thing. And to say:

what have I learned? And how can we impart that more broadly to a greater base of people?

Ben Chodor:

Well, you definitely did that! And I have a bunch of questions I want to ask you. Before, when you started writing the book, was it always five essentials? Or at one time, was there a sixth? Or seventh? Did you drill it down? And how did you come up with the five and why isn't it six or seven?

Amy Jen Su:

That is such a great question we really wrestled with, you know? What's the right number? What's the set of things? I had the good fortune of working with HBR Press and so my editors there, we had lots of dialogues around: what are we hearing from leaders out in the trenches every day? And what does the management literature seem to suggest? What was my anecdotal base of leaders that my firm and I were working with? What were the common denominators that kept showing up? And [we] even went back into sort of ancient, you know,

traditions to say:

what seems to show up whenever you think about high performance or self mastery? And so, you know, we named them lots of different things. But when all was said and done, the most common denominator were these five things.

Ben Chodor:

I want to jump into a question because I think this

is especially - listen:

if you haven't read the book, read the book. But, after you hear these answers, I think [they're] going to make you want to read the book. What are Leader A and Leader B modes and how is the mix of the two part of the leadership experience?

Amy Jen Su:

Leader A and Leader B was my way of trying to describe kind of the overall leadership experience for all of us. So we all have - the punchline is we're all Leader A and Leader B. And then you and I both have a Leader A mode where, you know, you wake up in the morning and somehow no matter what's thrown your way, even if it's something difficult or a challenge, somehow you don't resist the moment. Your first response to that moment is openness, is effectiveness, is what's the most constructive path forward. And somehow you, like, ride that wave - and you know you're bringing your best self. And look - we all wake up in the morning, we have Leader B mode, where, again, when the challenge or decision or whatever's thrown our way, somehow we meet that moment, not our best selves. In fact, we're more reactive; perhaps our perspective is more limited. It feels like we're swimming against the current. And what ends up showing up to our families and to our colleagues, is a much more reactive, high stressed, not clear decision-making leader. And, unfortunately, sometimes I'll have leaders say to me: Hey, I think I do a decent job at work, bringing my Leader A self. And sometimes it's actually our families who know our Leader B selves all too well. I think after this year of working from home, Ben, if you talk to my husband, and 15 year old son, they could tell you in excruciating detail what leader B looks like for me!

Ben Chodor:

My wife thinks I am only Leader B, and she's amazed at how I can run an organization of 1400 people being me, because I have nothing left when I sit with her at dinner after 16 hours of doing this. And being A, it's just not always there. Being present is one of the things that you have to change. Do you think most leaders know that they have both? Or are we so blind to who we are that we don't see both sides? In general?

Amy Jen Su:

That's such a great question. I think we all have this intuitive sense of this fleeting, shifting; even in a

given meeting, kind of:

Wow, I really... that was the right response and impact that I intended to have. And we all have this sense of coming out of the day: Ugh - those two things didn't quite go the way that I planned. My hope is just by giving language to the fact that we have these two modes, it

increases self awareness to say:

Right! I have a choice every day, every moment, when I send that email; when I join that

meeting to say:

Who's going to show up today? My Leader A, best self or this more reactive, stressed, overwhelmed version of myself?

Ben Chodor:

I love that. And it's funny, because it resonates because I feel it every single day. I mean, even pre-COVID. I mean, COVID just adds, you know, exclamation point at the end of it. But even pre, how do you do it? And it goes into: you can't motivate two people exactly the same way. How do you communicate to this group differently than that group? How do I communicate to my engineering team differently than to the sales organization? There is so much thought that goes into it - but coming with the A attitude? And I think that's what's great about A; a lot of it is the attitude that you come with is so important. Alright, so this five principles - just for the audience, what are the five principles?

Amy Jen Su:

The five principles are, first and foremost, PURPOSE. And we put that one right at the top to your earlier

question that:

at the end of the day, we as leaders and people need to stay connected to the North Star, you know? The difference you wanted to make five years, 10 years ago, is different than the difference you want to make today. And also, you know, what is jazzing you right now? So staying connected to our purpose is so critical - and the first principle. Following right from that, Ben, is PROCESS. And process sounds a little nuts and bolts trains on time. But without ritual and good process and healthy calendar management, we can't guarantee that our time and energy is focused in the right place. The third principle is PEOPLE. You know, the thing I've learned is no matter how productive or how capable you are, we all hit a capacity limit. And so you just can't do everything yourself. So having a great team building, great teams, building followership, having that great network of support critical to Leader A. Then the last two principles shift to kind of our inner world, if you will. So they're called PRESENCE - principle four- and INNER PEACE - number five. And, really, we added those two to your question around: was it three? Was it five, was it six? We felt like these last two principles were critical because even when you have a ton of success, that doesn't guarantee that you're going to enjoy the ride along the way. So we felt like it was critical to address that part of the Leader A attitude, as you mentioned, and

lens was:

how do you cultivate being more present? How do you cultivate that inner peace within yourself?

Ben Chodor:

Do you think [that with] being good leader, you also need to be a really good listener?

Amy Jen Su:

Absolutely. I think listening, especially as you become more seasoned and more senior, listening is so critical. And it requires that we're within our whole self. And, so many of us only ever listen at Level One. Level One is what you and I are doing here, you know, we're nodding, we're making eye contact. Some of us get to Level Two, where we're listening deeply to the issues that our team and colleagues might bring. But I think the goal is for all of us

to reach deep in and say:

Can we hit Level Three, where I'm listening with my whole body? For the agenda under the agenda? For the motivations at play for what's unspoken? I think that's really critical for leadership.

Ben Chodor:

So when you're coaching - let's use me as an example. So I've never been coached, obviously. And I probably need it as much as anyone. How long does it take you; or meeting me, how would you assess me to get to a point to get me to Level Three, and realize that he's not even at Level One yet? What goes through your mind when you're meeting, you know, a coachee [for] the first time?

Amy Jen Su:

When I'm meeting someone for the first time, I'm

getting a sense of:

first, where do I sense their center of gravity is? A or B, right? It's not about being leader A 100% of the time, but I am trying to sense, like, how grounded and how centered is this person? I'll ask a lot of questions to get a general sense of their overall self-awareness, of where they are as a leader; how much of their capability to be reflective exists? And then we always couple the coaching with 360 feedback to really understand, based on what the leader sharing with me, does in fact then match up to how others experience that person.

Ben Chodor:

I think that that's spot on. All right. So I learn best from stories. And I like that you put several stories inside the book. My favorite story is the... I guess it's the Cherokee legend about the two wolves.

Amy Jen Su:

Yeah.

Ben Chodor:

Could you tell us that story?

Amy Jen Su:

That story is so near and dear to my heart, and honestly, was the inspiration for this whole idea of A and B. And the story goes that, a grandfather is sitting with his grandson, and he sharing this wonderful story about two wolves. And he shares with the grandson that, you know, we all have these wolves inside of ourselves. And one wolf is anchored in anger and envy and pride. And, you know, ego, really. And the other wolf is anchored in our joy and our peace and our humility - nd I think, in leadership terms, kind of when we feel like servant leaders. And the grandfather

explains to the grandson:

we all have these two wolves that are fighting inside of us. And so the grandson pauses and says: Well, Grandpa, we have these two wolves and they're fighting, like, who wins? And the grandfather says to the

grandson:

The one that you feed. And so I love that this idea that what we choose to feed, and how we choose to feed ourselves, is often the answer to how we'll flourish, and who we are and how we choose to show up in the world.

Ben Chodor:

If I'm more of a B and I've been feeding the B side, are there tricks? [Is] there a way to train me, you know, at my age, at 50 years old? Can I be trained now to be more A?

Amy Jen Su:

100% yes! And it starts with the thesis that we're all whole people to begin with. And so when I meet a leader - and I'm turning 50 this year so I'm almost right there

Ben Chodor:

I love that! So another important part of the with you - when I first meet a leader; Leader B, even if that' book that I really loved is when you talked about the inner the pervasive place the leade starting in, it's really ju t they've lost access. So joy is available to all of us; liste spectator and why it's so important. I'd love if you ing is available to all of s; a certain attitude and le s is available. And so it's eally around helping the perso shared it. I think one of my - again it feels like this is a just access everything t at is already there and to unde stand what's happening in their external game and worl therapy session for me now - but, it's just, I don't think I that might be leading them t cope more through Leader than Leader A. spend enough time using my inner spectator and I think I can. Because I know I also think if you don't use your inner spectator a lot, you're really missing a lot of the journey along the way. But I love [it]. Why [is it] important to the

Amy Jen Su:

The concept of [the] inner spectator ,Ben, really book and share what an inner spectator is? came from this whole movement and trend and mindfulness. Some traditions call it the "inner observer", the one who's not busy inside. I like this idea of spectator because you can almost envision, right? Leaders - you're out on the field. You're playing the game. You're driving the ball down the field. And every now and then we just need to pause from all that action, and step aside and be able to watch ourselves almost to say: hey, if I were to watch a movie of myself from the last two weeks, what were those moments that I was my best self? And I was effective, and I was who I wanted to be? And what were those mindsets? And what were those behaviors? And what was it about that week that made it a great week? Did I get extra sleep? Did I prep differently? Did I have a different mindset? And so I think as leaders, who all of us love data; it's amazing to me how so many of us make business decisions off of data. So I'll say to my leaders that I work with: Hey, be the inner spectator for a couple weeks; come back with data at our next session. And let's look at, you know, kind of how your week went. And let's analyze it so that then you can make better choices going forward.

Ben Chodor:

That's another great point. All right. So now let's talk not such on the positive side - what are some of the pitfalls? I think you have four pitfalls of doing and how do those contribute to us being more B than A?

Amy Jen Su:

Four pitfalls, in some ways, Ben, are autobiographical. So I'm the first to admit I don't have this figured out. And I am susceptible, as all of us are, especially when things are busy. And the pace is fast. And hey, we're all still living through a pandemic - we're very susceptible to the four and the four are, the first is: JUST DO MORE, right? We have this faulty assumption that somehow if we just keep adding to our to-do list that that equals value, add or progress. And that's just not true. The second pitfall is JUST DO IT NOW. You know, somewhere in our minds, we're like: man, if everything's a fire drill, and I can just somehow cross off more items on the to-do list, that to-do list will end. And that's also not true, because as we know, as leaders, the to-do list never ends. The third pitfall is I'LL JUST DO IT MYSELF. And so again, I think in a world where it's tempting to say, yes, you Ben, yes, me, Amy might be able to do something faster or better than somebody on our team, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should do it yourself. But we can convince ourselves, let me swoop in there and take this back from one of my team members. And then the fourth pitfall is I'LL JUST DO IT LATER, that somehow our health, our loved ones, things we cherish and want to spend time on, hey, I'll get to that later one day. And those are the four pitfalls that I think every day, I know, I fall into one of them when I'm not careful.

Ben Chodor:

I think they've followed me, all fuor those, throughout my entire career. Up until now, I think I finally have an executive leadership team that I've empowered to the point that it's easy for me to sayL I don't have to do it, they can do it. I don't have to do it, and they can actually probably do it better than I can do it. I think, as I've gotten older, I've become more self aware. And that is, you know, as I read your book, and so much of it resonated with me because I go, Oh, yeah, man, when I was in my 30s, no one could do it better to me, I'm gonna do it. And now at the point I'm right now, like, no, I want empower! Part of my job is to empower and, you know, make myself in a lot of ways redundant. And that's... and actually making yourself redundant empowers you, because then you can start thinking about the bigger things about your organization. I also love that you talk about in the book about purpose, and it stuck with me. And how does purpose evolve as we go through life? Because I thought about my career, my purpose when I was in my 20s, to my purpose now. And I was like, I didn't even realize it till I was reading the book why it was so important.

Amy Jen Su:

I do love this idea that our purpose is not static. Right? And it makes a lot of sense, because we as humans are not static. And so our purpose has to evolve along with us. And I do think, Ben, as you mentioned, the key is: how do you stay in touch with that? How do we figure out what's my purpose at any given chapter in life? And so in the book, we describe two key filters that I have found in working with leaders can be very helpful clues to what our purposes at any given time. And the first is, for example, Ben, if I asked you, hey, what is your highest contribution? What's the difference you're hoping to make? And I'm hearing a lot that you've already shared in terms of how you're developing your team and empowering others. And so for each of us, it's important to pause and say, at this moment in time, what is that difference I'm hoping to make? And very closely connected with it, you can also track purpose to Hey, where's your passion right now? Like, if we went back and looked at your Outlook calendar from the last week and I said, walk me through the meetings where when you left you felt an energy boost? You came out of that meeting, feeling a bump in energy - those are all great clues to where purpose exists now.

Ben Chodor:

It's very interesting! As you were saying, and I was looking back at my calendar for last week, I think it's worse - people in my organization; I was in there and I put the spectator hat on, right? And saw them excel; you get off with those jazz because it's like, we're all like... When you're in rhythm with your team and your organization layers down, to me, that's, that's the magic. And then I want to move to another part, because this is something that I think is followed me also throughout my career: the fear of asking for help; I read it as a sign of weakness. It's not a sign of weakness at all. But I and I always stress to my entire global organization. see something, say something share it - there's no silos in the organization, it's only going to make us better. The worst we could ever do is say no because of this reason. But you got to ask for the help. Why are we all, especially leaders, it's so hard for us to ever ask for help?

Amy Jen Su:

It can be so hard to ask. I think by defining ourselves as a leader, somehow we think we have to have all the answers. And that's just not true. Yes, we bring great strength, but we're all always learning as well. And so as you mentioned, just that self awareness around: am I not asking for help, because I'm worried I'm going to seem vulnerable or needy, or maybe owe someone a favor thereafter? I've had leaders share with me sometimes that they feel awkward to reach out for help, because they don't want to burden their colleagues, Hey, I know my colleagues are really busy. Should I really be reaching out to folks? So I think to your point number one, just to recognize, hey, when do we feel vulnerable? And how do we recognize that that's part of being a leader? That we're leading and learning always at the same time?

Ben Chodor:

It's funny when you say that, because in the organization... So you know, there's 1400 people in my organization, so when one of my direct reports will come to me, and they will say, hey, do you need any help with anything? Can I help you with this? I used to take it as: Hey! What do you mean? You don't think I can handle this? You think I need your help? And then I realized it's like people love if you pass responsibility on - it's a sign of trust. It's a sign of engagement. And I've slowly embraced it. But it doesn't come easy. Because you do take it as a: Hey, you don't think I'm good enough for this?

Amy Jen Su:

Right? Yeah, no, it's important to do that. And I think, also, you know, getting comfortable with knowing how to make a good ask, or the right ways of asking for help. So really taking the time to think about who is this person? What's an appropriate ask? If somebody has helped you, I always say to

folks:

Don't forget to loop back to let them know how you used the information they provided! Or perhaps someone made an introduction - loop back and say: Hey, just want to let you know, I talked to your colleague that you made that great introduction to! I was able to really benefit from that. Thank you! That can go a really long way.

Ben Chodor:

One of the areas that you talked about [in] the book is the ability of being at peace. What does that mean, at peace? And then why, again, is that also really important for a leader?

Amy Jen Su:

Ben, the chapter on peace is probably the one most dear to my heart; that I really most hope for people that I work with, and anyone listening in to our conversation today. It's so important, because I've watched and worked with so many leaders who have dedicated so much of their working hours and life to their organization [and] to their teams. They have tremendous external markers of success by all measures. And yet, when you talk to them privately, there's a sense that they can't give themselves permission to just taste the joy of life, or to have a moment of satisfaction. I'll often start a

coaching meeting with:

Okay, Ben, before we jump into our meeting here, I want you to pull up that Outlook calendar. And let's take two victory laps together. I want to hear about two things you were really proud of or excited about this week. And so I think coming to peace with ourselves and realizing that the clock does not go back to zero every time we take on a new job or we find ourselves in a new situation. We are bringing our whole selves - we have to take stock of that, remember who we are, and to be able to settle into: Hey, I no longer need to prove myself. And so now I can optimize for meaning, for us servant leadership, for having a certain kind of impact. And that kind of release is what I most hope for when I work with folks.

Ben Chodor:

Does it come most of the time? Do you get to the point with most clients to that point where they are... where they can actually understand their peace? Be happy at moments? Or is that the hardest thing to get through to a leader?

Amy Jen Su:

I would say that's the hardest work; I would say I'm in that part of the process and journey myself personally. And so it does require that we're willing to go to places

where we realize:

Wow, that inner critic that's been driving me and motivating me for a long time is really unkind. Like, it's kind of amazing to me, the dialogue we all carry with ourselves. And so it is deeper work, it's harder work. But the moments where I see clients have joy, or they are able to just cut themselves a break - Those are some of my best moments in the coaching work.

Ben Chodor:

You know, it's interesting when you say that, because I'm when I, again, I don't want to always make it about me, but it feels [like] it's easy flow talking to you. I know my success here; I can see it out there and I understand

it. But I always beat myself is:

what could I have done better? Right? What did I do enough? Like I used to say - or I still say all the time - when I go to bed, there's three things I

think about, right? One is:

did i do right for my employees? Did I fight the right battle for them all day? Two: Did I fight the right battles for our clients, right? And I've learned more and more [that] you fight your battles for your employees, they're going to take care of your customers. And then the

third thing is:

Did I do everything I could for the shareholders of this organization? You know, we're privately owned. So for, Apollo and our global boss? And did I do enough for them, as opposed to lying in bed before you go to

bed and go:

Wow, look what I was able to succeed today? Look, what have we accomplished today? And it's really a hard thing to

sit back and go:

Yep, I know what I'm doing - life is pretty

Amy Jen Su:

Really hard. And really, in this idea of hold good. this, I appreciate and applaud the questions you ask yourself or a continuous improvement, hold a high bar. I hear a lot of responsibility and accountability to all your various stakeholders. And how do we balance that and give ourselves permission to oscillate to moments of, Hey, you know, I've been at this for a long time? You know, I can trust my instincts; I can trust that I'm bringing the right judgment to the team. And so finding that balance, I think, is really critical.

Ben Chodor:

So one last question, not so much about the book, but how have you seen leaders that you work with - what has been the biggest change in them during COVID? And, you know, not being able to go see their teams, not being able to travel? I have most been able to, you know, the new norm has been okay with them? Or do a lot struggle with it?

Amy Jen Su:

You know, I think early on in COVID, we saw executive teams and leaders really rise to the occasion, meet the crisis, pivot, make tough decisions, bring the organization along. And I think now in this last three to six month period, you're starting to hear more and more people talk about burnout, you know? Video fatigue, I think those things are very real. And so I think folks are trying to understand: Wow, there is a much longer tail to this - and so how do I continue to drive connectivity? How do I continue to find energy within myself? We're hearing a lot of wariness, to be perfectly honest.

Ben Chodor:

So a lot of people who have been able to put Leader B in the closet for a long time- Leader B is slowly creeping out of the closet just because of the circumstances we're under.

Amy Jen Su:

I think that's 100% true. So I when I look at sort of your drain/feed ratio - as COVID has continued on our drain ratio is going up. And so my, you know, hope for everyone is to coming out of this conversation, pausing to think about, you know, hey, how do I keep adding to the battery? What do I need to mix up in my own life? And where are the small joys? We brought our team - I lead a team of 25 folks with my colleagues, and a couple of my business partners - and we brought the whole team together last week and we said: All we want to do for this hour is to hear what sparking joy for you. And people shared things like their French press, coffee press, and that morning cup of coffee or their favorite Netflix show that they were watching. And I think it was just an important moment to bring some lightness back into the equation.

Ben Chodor:

I agree. I agree so wholeheartedly on that little things that bring you joy sharing it. We try to do that throughout our entire organization. This half an hour has flown by; this has been one of my favorite interviews to date. And it's not just me saying this; is an incredible book. If you're a leader or you want to be a leader or you just want to see what people are thinking, great book to read. Amy Jen Su, thank you so much for spending time with us today. This was so much fun. Thank you.

Amy Jen Su:

Ben, thank you so much. This was so much fun. I was so happy to be here.

Ben Chodor:

All right. Be safe. You too. Take care.