Insights with Ben Chodor

Conversation with A.J. Jacobs (Thanks a Thousand)

May 27, 2021 Ben Chodor/ A.J. Jacobs Season 2 Episode 5
Insights with Ben Chodor
Conversation with A.J. Jacobs (Thanks a Thousand)
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Show Notes Transcript

Ben sits down with A.J. Jacobs author of Thanks A Thousand: A Gratitude Journey.

It's been said that practicing gratitude can make us all happier, more generous, more connected and emotionally healthier.  A.J. decided to test out this concept and goes on a mission to thank every single person involved in producing his morning cup of coffee. The resulting journey takes him across the globe to thank 1,000 people. 

Ben and A.J. talk about how embracing gratitude transformed A.J.’s life, and he reveals secrets about how gratitude can positively impact your personal life as well as your work life to strengthen relationships with family, friends, clients and colleagues. 

To learn more about A.J. and Thanks A Thousand, visit https://ajjacobs.com/ 

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Ben Chodor:

Hello, everyone and welcome to insights with Ben Chodor. I am really excited about this author, right? I've known the author for a while. He's really good guy. He's super witty. His books are just very timely and together and they make me smile. I don't think I've ever read one of AJ Jacobs books without smiling and actually laughing out loud. And when I used to commute pre COVID, and if I was reading one of his books, it is pretty weird laughing out loud. When you're on a subway in New York City. People have a tendancy.... Well, some people look at you and other people pay no attention to you. But it's it's really interesting. It's great. All his books are incredible. We're here today to talk about Thanks, 1000. And I'm Joey, why don't we bring AJ in the scene? It's a gratitude journey. I love this book. This is What's also great about this book, it's you could finish it in one sitting. And you go back again, and read other elements about it. But AJ, before we jump into the book, there's a couple of your other books. I just want to touch on for one second. I've read the Know It All. And I read, you know the year of the Bible, right? So let me ask you a question. At the end of the Know It All. Did you feel much smarter?

A.J. Jacobs:

Yes, let me answer that first. Let me thank you. You know, I'm, you know, I'm all about thanking, so thank you for having me on your excellent podcast. I have so enjoyed listening to back episodes. And thanks to Steve Wozniak for inventing the Apple Computer, which I'm using right now. But um, yes, I read from my first book, I read the encyclopedia from A to Z and tried to learn everything in the world. And I don't know if I was smart, I certainly more annoying to my wife, because I will try to insert.... irrelevant information into conversation whenever I could. So she actually started to fine... she penalized me $1 for every irrelevant. But it was still despite that a wonderful experience overall.

Ben Chodor:

And how was the the year of living the Bible? How was that experience for you? It's almost like your I can uncover it like an undercover agent, everything you do, you engulf yourself in... in the experience? Right? So it's not just a book... it's a story? It's an experience everything you do?

A.J. Jacobs:

Absolutely. Yeah, I made some call it methods journalism, or experiential journalism, or stunt journalism. Whatever you call it is fine with me. But I yeah, I live by all the rules of the Bible. So the 10 commandments, of course, but also there are hundreds of rules that don't get a lot of publicity. So I had to, you can't shave the corners of your beard. And I didn't know where the corners were. So I just.... had this beard down to my wasn't quite my navel. But I look like I got a lot of Gandalf people call me Gandalf. So it was some ways it was wonderful. And some ways it was absolutely a nightmare.

Ben Chodor:

Awesome. Now I want to jump in this book. But one of the interesting things that popped out at me is you wrote the book came out I can 2018... 19 ish. And you write that you're more of a Larry David than you are a Tom Hanks. So how appropriate was it that last year on Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry opened a coffee shop, and your book today is about your journey of being grateful. And it has a lot to do with coffee with coffee....is there any irony there for you?

A.J. Jacobs:

That is hilarious. I didn't actually even know that. I haven't seen the latest episodes. But yeah,

Ben Chodor:

he opened a place called mocha Larry's and it was his coffee shop. And he searched for the best cup of coffee. And he made it because he.... for spite. There was another coffee place next door that he was like they shunned him. They said he can't have our coffee anymore. So he said I'm gonna open my own coffee place.

A.J. Jacobs:

Yeah, he's not fueled by gratitude. And I do think I mean, I love watching him. But I would not want to be in that mindset, which I sometimes am. And it was interesting listening to your back episodes and how you are actually you are not saddled with that Larry David, as much which I'm so impressed and a little bit jealous. But I think for me and a lot of people it's always a wrestling match between Yeah, the Larry Page. David side, and the Mr. Roger side, or Tom Hanks, whatever. But I am very good at finding the negative. So if I hear 100 compliments and a single insult I... what do I remember and t e insult and, and I think you a e lucky. But I think our brai s are wired that wa. Unfortunately, because f evolution, we needed to kno, when we were cave people, e needed to really be able o notice the bad the lion or t e poisonous mushroom. But n w we're saddled with this negati e outlook. And it is just not go d for your mental healt

Ben Chodor:

And I think in my case, it's I grew up with a lot of negative around me, and all I ever wanted, was to not have that.... right. I wanted to, you know, succeed, I didn't want to not succeed, I saw how my parents didn't always succeed. And it was like, my thing is, gratitude and positivity is how it got me through it and how it gets me through everything going forward. But this is about this incredible book. two things. First, I'm going to have

A.J. Jacobs:

Well, first of all, I want to hear more about your journey, because that's amazing that you were able to rise up over your circumstance. But this book came about because I had, I've been reading for years about the benefits of gratitude, which are huge, there's mental health benefits, it helps to stave off depression, but they're even physical benefits. And you recover more quickly from from sicknesses and, and surgery. And there's business benefits, it really helps in business as well, and morale. So I was like, I need more of this in my life. Even though I'm a default, Larry David. So I started this little ritual during dinner, where I would say to my kids, I just want to thank some of the people who made this meal possible. So I'd like to thank the farmer who grew the tomatoes for our spaghetti, and the cashier who sold me the tomato. And my son, who was 10 at the time, said, Dad, that's, that's fine. But it's also kind of lame, because those people are, they can't hear you, they're getting nothing out of it. If you really care, you would go and thank them in person. And I said, that is a very good idea for a book project. So I mean...

Ben Chodor:

From the mouths of babes, and it is you're gonna get you're gonna get a cut of the proceeds.

A.J. Jacobs:

He keeps asking me that. Well, he still gets fed. So I guess that's his cut. But yeah, it was, it was a wake up call. And, and I decided, I'm going to try it. And I'm going to focus on one item, my morning cup of coffee to make it simpler. But of course, it was not simple. Because once I started delving in, you realize that there are hundreds of people we take for granted invisible people who are invisible to us that my cup of coffee could not exist without nothing in my life. But I thank the barista at my local coffee shop. But I flew to South America, and I thank the farmers. But I also thanked everyone in between the the guy who drove the truck with the coffee beans, and he couldn't have done his job without the road. So I had to thank the people who made the road. So I kind of got carried away and in the end, I thanked 1000 people, but I genuinely believe that nothing in our lives. It doesn't take the village, it takes the globe to make anything happen. And we've seen this in COVID. COVID has been a real wake up call for that.

Ben Chodor:

It truly has. And then you also say, you know that many people associate gratitude with the word Thank you. But it's more than just saying thank you. It's saying, you know, I am, you know, deeply grateful for you to do this or something you did. And when you bring it into COVID I think it's true. I mean, from us in New York banging the pans right when the healthcare workers got off. I find myself even more when you see someone in there doing something like thanking them for their service and what they're doing and I think there's this... it's changing, but for you, how do you come up? How do you figure out that saying I'm more grateful... or saying it's something that's a little more personal work better than just saying thank you.

A.J. Jacobs:

What absolutely, you're right it is, the more specific, the better. So when I tell my kids about writing, thank, you notes, don't just say thank you for the gift, say thank you. For, you know, the book, which I read, when I was taking the subway here...just make it as specific as possible how it changed life. And that the idea of saying instead of Thank you, as it's saying something like, I'm really grateful, or I'm deeply grateful that I actually got from a study by the Wharton School of Business, did a study that showed when you change the language, even just a little it will, it makes a difference. So they had people write notes, after a job interview. And when they use that phrasing, I'm deeply grateful, they actually got a much bigger response, a much bigger call back. And I think that the reason is just thank you almost sounds like a reflex. Now that sounds like you know, you don't even put any thought into it. So it doesn't have to be the phrase, I'm deeply grateful. But anyway, the mix it up to show that you are actually putting thought into this, and you actually feel this emotion is not just pro forma. That is, to me one of the keys.

Ben Chodor:

No, I think you're right, because if you take it even out of this context, my wife would sit there and say, you just can't say I love you. Because it's just a word over and over again, you know, you just can't say goodnight, I love it, it's got to make something a little bit more personal because anyone could just use the word so and I know just for me, when someone says something just a little bit different. It has it resonates with me more, and I take it further with me. But you actually say, you know, can we talked about a little bit before? that everyone has a negative bias? And you say, by being grateful, it can actually change? Do you feel as a person after you wrote the book? And after you went on your entire journey? Have you.... have you rewired your brain? Are you a different person, when it comes to negative thoughts and positive thoughts?

A.J. Jacobs:

I have partially rewired my brain. It is still a struggle. It's still a wrestling match between the Larry David in the Mr. Rogers, but it is so much better than it was. And I do think without this gratitude, this practice and discipline that I have, I could not, I don't know how I could have made it through the last year, which has been so tough. But gratitude has really helped keep me afloat. And and it's certainly, I mean, I am an overthinker. I put it in my little bio on Twitter, I'm an over thinker. So I, you know, I'll thank people, for the most inane, small things. But I have to say it's, it's good for my mental health. And I think you get an occasional, like...alright, enough with the thank yous, but most people I think are under thanked, I think most people love to be acknowledged. And that was one of the big lessons of the book, for instance, I would make these cold calls to people. And I'd say, you know, I know this is weird, but I just want to thank you for keeping the insects out of my coffee. I was calling the the pest control woman who works at the coffee factory. And she's saying, you know, that is weird, but thank you, I just don't get a lot of acknowledgement in my job. And this is kind of made my day and, and it's like an anti crank phone call, and then in turn, had a virtuous cycle that made me feel better.

Ben Chodor:

Right...and you know, you mentioned in the book that, you know, I'm a huge fan of just paying it forward in general, I believe it actually comes back I can find a look at my life. When I paid it forward. It has come back in spades.....right. So have you actually noticed while you're saying thank you and you're grateful to someone that more... how it's passing down? Have you actually experienced it?

A.J. Jacobs:

I have seen that happen. And yeah, I feel like it's a chain or a chain reaction. So I remember when I went to Colombia to thank the farmers. At first they were a little baffled by my project, but then they got into the swing of it and, and they talked about all the people that they relied on for their job. The company that makes the machine that takes the skin off of the coffee, cherry coffee beans come inside a little red fruit at the pickup truck that they use to drive around the farm. So it really is... yeah, I feel that It's like a ripple effect. Once you, you start thanking, then other people take it, take it up.

Ben Chodor:

One of the things that I love that you did in the book is that you did little pictures of your entire journey from the barista all the way to the coffee farmer and along and you acknowledge them, again, another way of thanking them forever, because it's gonna it's going to live like this. And there's little images of them. So I got a question for you some advice. So I lead an organization of close to 1500 people. All over the world, we have offices in 17 countries around the world. How can someone like me like a leader, you know, use Thank you, and gratitude to shift morale. I mean, one of the hardest parts during COVID, especially is I don't get to get on a plane and go around and see my teams everywhere and actually look them in the eyes and say, Hey, this is where we're going on a journey. And let's face it, just doing them as you know, video conferences and webcast, it's not quite the same. Like what what's your advice? How do you use it in a business setting?

A.J. Jacobs:

Absolutely. First of all, just quickly, I didn't draw those illustrations, I love them. But I want to thank the illustrator whose name embarrassingly I forget but she was great. Secondly, yeah, gratitude has a lot of impact on the business world. And I've written about this for various business magazines. And and it's comes in several ways. First, the idea of writing thank you notes, to potential clients. There have been studies that when when you write an actual handwritten Thank you there's something very special about a handwritten thank you note that the retention rate doubled. There are... as a leader, you can write Thank you notes. And it's a little bit of a pain in the ass or a pain in the hand, but it is, I think it will pay off big time is to write handwritten thank you notes to your employees. I know that the the former CEO of Campbell Soup wrote thousands of handwritten thank you notes over his career. I also think that I've talked to many corporations that have tried to build in gratitude practices into their work day. So even starting a meeting, but going around and saying what you're grateful for. One of the I think is soulcycle has like a an employee app, a smartphone app where you can specifically thank people for something they did, by sort of pinging them. And, and me I actually, as an author, to market this book, I pledged to write a thousand, handwritten thank you notes to readers. And I didn't really know what I was getting into. So it would turn out it was so time consuming. But it was also one, it was one of the best things I've ever done, because I really connected with my readers, and then they would post my thank you notes on their social media. So I kind of got a boost from that. And it made me feel good. It was like a nice, half an hour a day where I actually was like, you know, reminding myself that my product does have a positive impact. And the people who consume it,

Ben Chodor:

I'm not going to say I got the the the idea from you from reading the book. But one of the things that I started a couple years ago in the organization was so we we produce events, whether it's earnings events, you know, ten thousand plus clients around the world, I send every single and I should do it as a handwritten note. And now I'm sort of thinking.... I think I will, but an email saying thank you for trusting us before the event, but also giving them my contact information. And one of the things that I found was...a thrid of the people will send me back a note gone. Thank you for looking out for us. The event was great or great. Our events coming up next week. We hope it's great. Thank you for your team support. About 20% of the people would send back a note going I'm really nervous about the event. Can you help me? And I kind of love that because they pass it off to my team. And we respond and we build an intimacy and only get 30% of people don't don't respond. But I feel like it builds an intimacy with clients. They appreciate it. They're not used to it because a lot of them send back notes. I'm not used to this. You know that the president of the company is reaching out to me before my program and thanking me for trusting them with their their vision. And then employee wise, one of the things that we start, I always would send people note if they did something great. But one of the things we started when COVID started, anytime someone would do something that I thought was amazing, we'd send them a little gift. And I first I thought I was doing it for the employees. And, and they would send back pictures. And when you get a picture of something with a gift, you kind of love and it makes you feel good. But I found out through COVID is 90% of people would send back a note going, Oh, my family loved the chocolate or the pretzels or the gift. And now their family became fans of the company, more so than even the employee because there was a goodie box into them, and the power that it created, and how it made me feel good, but helped our culture is incredible. And it's just different ways of saying thank you. But I got to start sending a handwritten note.... with it. I started we wrote a book this year, my first book, and I anyone, like our clients, when I send them out, I wrote them little notes on the book. It is tiring, and it feels good at the end of it and you run out of things witty to say, you know, as opposed to...I hope the book doesn't put you to sleep type of thing. But it's it's cathartic too.

A.J. Jacobs:

Yeah. Well, I love everything you just said and, and I'm so glad you found that powerful. Because I definitely do too. And, and yeah, the the gifts is taking it to another level. And that's great.

Ben Chodor:

Alright, so I got a question for you. So throughout the book, lots of characters I love But um, I don't know if it because it happened in the beginning. And it's the one that stuck sticks with me the most is Chung, your barista, you know, made a great point by you know, and I want to say it exactly. Gratitude is a discipline that needs to be practiced. What are some of the ways you would recommend that we practice gratitude every day? But before you answer that, like, is Chung still there? And do you still go to Joe's for your coffee? And how has it changed when you.... do you light up? Now when you go into Joe's? I mean?

A.J. Jacobs:

Well, it is nice. Yeah, it's a little bit like Norm from cheers if you remember that now. Especially I wrote a whole book about him. And Chung is still there. And she is amazing. Yeah, as you say, a big smiler she she was a hugger at least before COVID. And she and she is it she told me about how hard being a barista is because you are dealing with people in a very dangerous mind state which is pre caffeination. So, so yeah, respect to your barista. As for the discipline I totally agree with, with Chung that it is, it's not something that comes naturally to most of us. So gratitude should be a discipline and, and a habit. So to make it a habit, ... a lot of people do gratitude journals, you know, here are the three things I'm grateful for today. And then that can be very effective. I actually email my mom with one or two things that I'm grateful for in the morning, and she emails me back. So that I like because it's sort of a interactive. Yeah. And then I also find this very helpful when I'm going to sleep instead of counting sheep while I try to count things that I'm grateful for. And, and to give it some structure, I do it .... alphabetically. So I'll do you know, a grateful for the apple pancakes my son's made for me this weekend. And B I'm, I'm grateful for you, Ben, for having me on your show. etc. So yeah, I'm finding these little rituals. And I also I love the one before dinner, where you go and you think of all the people who made that meal possible.

Ben Chodor:

Have your family taken it on? As it as it spread through the family? Did you find them thank you more be more grateful since you went on this journey, or...all back to normal for them?

A.J. Jacobs:

I hope so. I think so. And yeah, my you know, they know that I am so obsessed with gratitude. So they know that they have to first of all, thank the bus driver, or whoever, you know, just go out of your way to thank anyone in your life. But, but I've had some very sweet moments... one of my son's....he thanked my mother and then he went ahead and thanked her parents for having her because she wouldn't exist without them and he wouldn't exist without her. And then he thanked their parents. So it kind of went back and, and became a, an infinite near infinite loop, which I love. I love that way of thinking.

Ben Chodor:

That makes me feel good. Alright, so, to wrap up, I only have one question after this question for you. What's next AJ? What? What's coming out next? What are you working on? What are you going to engulf yourself into next?

A.J. Jacobs:

My next book is coming out next year, and it's called The Puzzler, a quest to solve the hardest puzzles ever from crosswords to jigsaw as to the meaning of life. So it's all about my love of puzzles and the puzzle mindset, which I think is a very important tool in any... in relationships, in business, and in anything, thinking out of how to think outside the box.

Ben Chodor:

Wow. So you, are you in New York Times crossword puzzle guy? And

A.J. Jacobs:

oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, this started, part of it started because I appeared as a an answer to a clue in the New York Times crossword puzzle, which I thought was the highlight of my life.

Ben Chodor:

I was gonna go...I'd ended right there, I sit there and go, what is a hire? That the only thing that might be one step above it? Not? Not for smart people. But in general, if you were a Jeopardy answer, that would be the only step... even better.

A.J. Jacobs:

Oh, that would be wonderful. Yes, I was super happy. A friend of mine pointed out it was the Saturday puzzle, which is the hardest. And a lot of the answers are kind of obscure. So that was a little humbling. But still, I'm quite happy to be in any day of the week.

Ben Chodor:

Well, AJ, thank you so much. This was for me, this was a blast, because I've known you for a while and a big fan and I cannot wait to read the next book. And everyone should check out all of AJ's books. They're incredible. And thank you very much for being on it. I'm very grateful to you know, for you spending time with us today.