Conversation with Leslie Ehm (Swagger)

How can you find your swagger?

We spend a lot of time trying to fit into boxes, being put into categories, eradicating what makes us unique as individuals and as leaders.

Yet everybody comes into the world a swagger-filled force of self-assured confidence.

It's the world that beats it out of us and makes us doubt all those things that are magical and special about ourselves.

Join Ben and Leslie Ehm for this exceptional conversation as they explore how to get back to your true self and unleash your swagger to become everything you were meant to be.

Transcript

Ben Chodor  00:00

Good morning! Good afternoon! Good evening, wherever you are! Welcome to this edition of "Insights with Ben Chodor". I've got to tell you something, this is going to be one of my favorite interviews. And I know this before it happens, because the title of the book is swagger. Who doesn't love "Swagger: Unleash Everything You Are and Become Everything You Want" by Leslie M.? And Leslie, I am so excited to interview you, and talk about "Swagger" because I love all your theories in the book. What's also great about the book, for everyone watching, [is that] there are great examples. There are little charts and questions that you get to answer along the way as well. So please read the book - even if you're already a leader; you want to be a leader; you're just trying to be your best self. It's a fun book! Me and Gab, who actually produced this, we like to call this book 200 pages of therapy. Leslie, welcome to the show! How are you today?

Leslie Ehm  01:09

I am so good. I'm so good. Like I get to do this today. So who doesn't love that? 

Ben Chodor  01:14

All right, before we even jump into the book, what prompted you to write the book? When did you realize: I'm a coach, I run an organization, I'm going to put it together and write a book and teach swagger to everybody. 

Leslie Ehm  01:29

With my training company, I was traveling the world and working with different cultures, different companies, people at all levels. And we were doing skills training: so presentation skills, communication, leadership, creativity, and so on and so forth. But I knew instinctively that the only way I was going to get people to really, truly onboard the learning and make change was... you really have to get into their kiscas. They have to want to open their hearts and minds, and you have to deal with the real them; you have to get past all of that persona, all of that exterior crap, or you're not going to get any real results, right? Tthere has to be an emotional, visceral experience. So that was always part of my focus. And what I discovered throughout that journey of delivering this kind of training was that, when you could get past people's exterior and into the real them - past that persona - and get them to reveal who they really were, people lost their minds. The person lost their mind, because they saw just how amazing it felt and that they were tapping into power they didn't even know they had, but the people around them would also go: "Oh my god, you were so much better! That was so much more powerful. I've never seen you like this!" or "That was amazing!" And I would watch the magic that would happen and the feedback that I would get after about it having been life changing, and so on. And in those moments, when I would see people taking those risks - because it felt really, really risky for them - and stepping, you know, out of that comfort zone and into that place of fear and vulnerability, I would always get emotional. And I could see the moment... I could see that crack and they would start to come out I go: "Yes, there it is! There's your swagger! There is that thing!" And I was calling it swagger because, I wanted it to feel powerful for them. 

Ben Chodor  03:25

Right. 

Leslie Ehm  03:25

I wanted them to understand they were tapping into something that was truly badass. But the badassness with them; was who they were! It wasn't coming from anything external. It was coming from the internal. And then I would sort of quantify or qualify, rather, by saying I'm not talking about that show off-y, in your face, peacock-y thing. I'm talking about swagger as the ability to manifest who you really are, and hold on to it in the face of all of that psychological crap that's going to come forward regardless of the situation or environment. And that's when I realized: I need to focus just on this. This is my place of purpose.

Ben Chodor  04:09

Have you always called this swagger? Like when you first started doing your in-person, did you have another term for it and slowly move towards swagger, or has that always been Leslie's thing

Leslie Ehm  04:20

I used to tell people to fly their freak flags high. I used to tell people to keep it real. You know, it was always that. It was mixed up. But I think swagger was hitting the nail on the head for me in terms of my redefinition of it. It was that badassness, you know? That true power because, listen: everybody comes into the world a swagger-filled badass. It's the world that beats the crap out of us and makes us doubt all those things that are magical and special about ourselves. And I wanted people to get it back. And to know that they already had it, right? So it just felt like the right word for me.

Ben Chodor  04:58

When did you know you had swagger?

Leslie Ehm  05:00

I think I've always known that I had swagger, and I had to fight really hard for it. But I was very fortunate to be raised in a family by incredible parents who reinforced [that].

Ben Chodor  05:13

You praise your mom a lot in the book.

Leslie Ehm  05:15

Yeah! Like, she really reinforced that all of the things that were wild and crazy about me - because I was really a difficult child, you know, perception wise. I was difficult. I was not conventional; I was precocious; I was hyper; I was a rule breaker; I got into all kinds of trouble, all of that stuff. I didn't follow any traditional path in any way, shape, or form. And the world really tried to force me to assimilate and to capitulate, and to behave myself - and I refused. And it was not easy, because you can imagine the world really gives you a beatdown, it really does. But I knew who I was, and I knew what drove me. I've always been driven by love, you know, there's not a mean bone in my body. All I want is for everybody to feel good and feel powerful. I was always for the underdog, and you know, all of that, all of that stuff. And I understood how difficult it was to hold on to that in the face of all the psychological crap that was going to come for it, you know? Not to mention the physical crap. I mean, you're going to get bullied, you're going to get all of those things. But I fought hard to stay true to who I was. And it served me incredibly well! Like, long run, right? It's a long game. It's a long game.

Ben Chodor  06:36

It is a long game. I feel, you know, it's very similar. I feel like I have a very similar background, because school tried to put you in a box. It wasn't individual, right? They wanted me to be like everybody else. And I wasn't. I was always hyper, right? A lot of energy; was a rule breaker. I had more creativity than I did, you know, we'll call "book smarts". And they try to make everyone the same. And I think one of the things I'm most proud of myself is that I didn't succumb to that. I didn't change my inner who I am, you know? I mean, not everyone loves that I have not changed the inner me. But I'm very true to myself. And I love that when I was reading the book, it's like half self-reflection, and have professional growth. And it's nice to go back and, for me, to read something and go: "Wow, I feel pretty good that this is what I did." And a reminder. Because as you grow in your career, you start to sit there and go, "Should I be more like everyone else?Should I be what they expect me to be as a leader?" And, I mean, I've led this company, Intrado Digital Media, the way I want to lead it - not the way they expected me to. And I find, you know, it's been successful, despite how you think the norms would be. And your book was just... I just like how you talk so plain in the book. I love how you don't hold anything back. And, also one of my favorite parts is you use humor throughout throughout the whole book. And I think, end of the day, when you lose your sense of humor doesn't matter what else you have - it's not going to make a difference.

Leslie Ehm  08:22

You got to take your [life], like, in this life, you got to take what you do very seriously. But you cannot take yourself that seriously. It's not accessible - you want to be accessible to people. And the only way you could do it is by just... I hold my values in high esteem. And I hold my heart in high esteem. But I'm just like a goofball, you know?

Ben Chodor  08:47

My favorite part of running a company - outside of being successful, right? Because that's what they pay you to do, is engaging, in my case, 1,500 employees around the world. I say every day: I go to bed worrying that I do right by the 1,500. And they don't understand that my favorite thing is when I engage with groups of them, or when I travel. I don't want to have dinner with other executives, I want to be with my people - the team that I'm doing it all for. And again, it also grounds you as a leader because you understand why you're doing it as opposed to being around all people that are just going to kind of yes you or give you the information you want.

Leslie Ehm  09:23

And the worst leaders in the world are people who cannot viscerally reconnect what it felt like to come up at each step. And the reality of the pain and the reality of the struggle and the reality of the challenges and the reality of the aspirations. As soon as you get disconnected from that, it's all lost. You have now become an asshole.

Ben Chodor  09:44

Exactly. I mean, and that's, you know, it's one of the things, like,  I always want to surround myself around with people that are smarter than me in a lot of ways because I learn - it's educational every day. I love doing these interviews because I consider this my own private masters class, right> Because I am interviewing authors that I kind of are intrigued by the book. And I get to go a little deeper. Before we jump into some questions, one of the things that I love that you wrote in the book is wrote: "Humanity, vulnerability and authenticity are the keys to swagger." And I love that. Mine has always been about positivity, humility, empathy and gratitude, righ? Sort of ties into it. Why are those three words "humanity, vulnerability and authenticity" so important?

Leslie Ehm  10:30

"Humanity" because, if we do not recognize that we are all the same, we can't create connection. It's not possible. As soon as we start believing that we are different from other people, we lose touch with what's real in this world. I mean, we're all bags of bones, we all bleed, the color of our skin is relevant only to what we bring to the party from our perspective, and our experience and our perception of the world. And all of those amazing things that diversity - true diversity - brings. But we are human, first. We all hurt, we all want to be loved. We all want to be seen and acknowledged for who we are. Full stop. Everybody has a story. Everybody - that's the first thing to remember is everybody has a story. "Vulnerability" because, if you don't let anything in, then nothing gets out. It's just the way it is. It's a two-way pipe, you can't choose it. You can't ask for it in other people and not have it for yourself. You cannot get full or fill other people unless you're vulnerable. And "Authenticity" because, the only way to know in this life that you are truly being seen and acknowledged and respected and loved for who you are, is to show people who you are. Otherwise, you're living in a dream. It's a dream of your own making. It's not real.

Ben Chodor  11:55

I agree. You know, I have a question for you. But it's one of the things that actually struck home for me. You say most people think flaws are something to be hidden. So in my case, I think until I was like, in my late 20s, I hid who I was, right?

Leslie Ehm  12:11

How did you hide who you were?

Ben Chodor  12:13

So, like I mentioned, you know, like, I grew up with no money; wasn't always the best student, you know, wasn't vulnerable. Had to feel like I deserve to be in the room, even though I probably really did deserve to be in a room, I didn't think I was worthy to be in the room. Because maybe not the same pedigree, you know, not the same education. Maybe, theoretically, not the same book smarts. I always thought that I didn't deserve [it]. Something clicked in my late 20s, and it made me [go], like, now this is who I am. It's okay that my family had no money. And it's okay that I put myself through college. And it's okay that I didn't fit into a box and it's okay all these other things. And actually, it actually made me better because it taught me what are my secret powers. You know, I'm really good at judging people, right? I have grit, I have vulnerability, right? I have passion, and it allows you to know who you are. And once you share it, the world opens up to you. And as an entrepreneur, in my businesses that I started after 28/29 were so much more successful, because I was who I was. Why do you think so many people try to hide their flaws instead of saying, hey, these are my scars, these are my pock marks, this is who I am, you know, embrace me?

Leslie Ehm  13:36

I think most people are afraid that people won't. We're so afraid. We're so rooted in fear and insecurity. And we just want to be loved. We want to be respected, we want to be acknowledged. The bottom line is, everybody wants to be loved. And so much so that we often don't care why we're being loved. It's like if we put on a good false front and we look really shiny to other people and we become something aspirational for them - that's good enough for them. If it's that we appear to be someone who is more powerful or whatever, and we think we're going to be revered and our ego loved for that, we'll take it. Like we're so we're starving for it. And the fear is if people see that I am not perfect, and then I am you know, messy, and as soon as I confess my mess, is everyone going to head for the hills? Or am I not going to get these opportunities that I was dreaming of because there's an expectation that I'm supposed to be perfect or glossy? We're so afraid that the doors will close that we forget that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. And we have the power to step out whenever we want - and I would rather be, you know, loved and accepted by some for who I really am, than supposedly love and respect admired by everyone for who I'm not. It's empty, it's empty. But you have to have a lot of courage to do that. Because you've been conditioned your whole life by certain things, and either you never break free of them, or at some point you break free - for you [it] was in your late 20s. I work with a lot of people who are still in their 40s, 50s, and they still haven't had the courage to break through. Or they don't know how to. That's another thing, too, that's why I got such mad love for people. Because I know that there's always a story. And you know, you say please, well, why? Why has it been so hard for you when they tell you the story? And you pick back? That's why the book is like therapy. You go? Haha, oh, oh, there you go. It started here. That was the story that was planted in your head. And that became your narrative. And that's the story you've continued to tell yourself. And you're going to have to find a new narrative now and record over all those negative tapes. That's not easy work.

Ben Chodor  15:56

No, it's hard.

Leslie Ehm  15:57

It's not, it's really hard. And a lot of people just don't even know where to start. It's so overwhelming. It's so overwhelming. So that's, I think, that's the key to it - [it's] recognizing that you can have this whenever you want. You really can't it's never too late. Never, never, never, never.

Ben Chodor  16:13

Right. So, you know, what you also mentioned in the book is and I mentioned that I think I'm good at reading people is: when you get people to speak, when you're doing in person, and they stand up and they tell, when they pick out of the jar and they read whatever or they tell the story they sell - can you really tell by looking me in the eyes if it's the true me? What is this secret power you have? And what makes it? What do you look for?

Leslie Ehm  16:40

I don't know if it's because I've always been deeply empathetic. Because I love human beings so much. And I pay attention to them. I just have really highly-tuned antenna - I don't know what it is, but I've always been able to smell bullshit. I've always been able to see what people are trying so desperately to hide because it looks like pain to me. It's almost like... You know when you look at those heat models of people? I kind of see people like that; I can see what is exterior and what is that next layer down and what's deeper in. People don't always love me for that because I can cut right through it. And it can be very hard for people who are like, okay, I don't want you to see - I'm not offering it up! How is it you're seeing it? They feel exposed, you know? So you have to be gentle. And, you know, people will joke about the fact that. If you when you read the first story in the book, a lot of people go, oh my god, how could [you do that]?

Ben Chodor  17:38

The Tony story, right?

Leslie Ehm  17:39

Yeah, the Tony story. And people are like, Oh, my God, that's just whatever. And I'm like, no, but we were in it together. I also know that I'm an incredibly powerful, fierce human, and nothing bad will ever happen to someone on my watch. I will hold you and continue and support you. And God forbid anyone in that space says anything sideways, oh, for they're dead. Forget about it. And that's never happened, by the way for the record. In all of my years, I have never had anyone be other than supportive, loving, empathetic, when other people have moments because they recognize themselves in that moment. And they know it's going to be their turn next, too, so that you know, but I really do. It's like I see the overcompensation, I see the things that they're using to try and deflect and distract. I see what is not human behavior. It's persona behavior. It's the the trappings of people. I know right away, whether that would be what that person would be. Like, if we went out for dinner, we hung out, you know, and drank or, you know, whatever - I could tell right away. And so, it scares the crap out of people, but it's a very useful superpower. Very useful.

Ben Chodor  18:57

I think it's an incredible superpower. One of the other things that I love that you put in the book is you know, you hate the term: "Fake it 'til you make it" right? Even though you know if you listen to most motivational speakers, and common knowledge and business is, hey, dive into it, fake it 'til you make it eventually you're going to learn it and then it will become you. Faking it has always scared me because I think if I'm me, I'm me. right? Yeah, but if I fake it, I'm always when I'm faking it going, like, are they gonna know I'm faking it? I mean, I can't. Why do you hate that term so much? And do you see it every day?

Leslie Ehm  19:35

Oh, I see it every day. I see people embracing the sensibility of "Fake it 'til you make it", which then leads to the Imposter Syndrome and profound insecurity because they see your point - they're waiting to get found out. And it's actually legit Imposter Syndrome because that could happen now. Someone could stand up in a meeting and go, hey, what you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and they would be right. So that the problem with "Fake it 'til you make it" is the thing that that Everybody is trying to fake his confidence. That's what they're trying to convince other people of, right? We're not faking it till we make it for ourselves. We're doing it for other people. And we're like in Hell while we're doing that. It's a terrifying place to be. The problem with that, though, is the only way you can experience legitimate confidence is as a result of competence. Only by doing something over and over and over again, and in convincing your pretty resistant brain that I got this, and I can do this in a bunch of different situations, you can throw me in different roles, and I can handle it, I got these transferable skills, I'm pretty much good to go. Only then can you go, Yeah, I got this, I'm good - and that shows as confidence. When you fake it till you make it, you're, first of all, limiting your ability to learn. Because you're so busy telling everyone I got this, I know it, I know what to do, I got it, that now you can't go and admit to people actually, I got a lot to learn. And I'm wondering you very incredibly wise, smart person more experienced than me? Could I sit at your feet? And would you help me to be better and smarter and more adept and more capable? And then of course, if you're really smart, you then go and tell everybody else how this amazing person helped you to be better and smarter and all the rest of it. So you're not only validating your own now, greater expertise, but you're explaining how you got to there. And who the Hell are we kidding? As if we think we all came into the world having all of this competence? No, we are where we are in our journey. And we need to learn how to own it, and say, I'm a badass right here. Two years ago, I was not a bad ass right here I am now and two years from now, or whatever it is, I'm going to be badass there. But it's going to take me some time. But here's why I'm all in. Here's why I'm so smart. Here's why you include me. And here's why you should give me the opportunity. Plus, there's something called the Dunning Kruger effect, which is super dangerous and super detrimental. What researchers have learned is that when you smoke your own crack, as it were, and you start trying to convince yourself that you're all that and a bag of chips, first of all, you stop wanting to improve - because you think you're improved. So you get stuck where you are because there's no drive to get better. Because you've convinced your brain that you're already there. Plus the fact that, by definition, you start to make really bad decisions because they're uninformed decisions. You don't go to other people [and ask] their input, you think you know everything. And there's all kinds of really dangerous ramifications. So I say, "Feel it 'til you find it". Don't fake it 'til you make it. And don't worry about confidence; confidence will come. And once you have true confidence, it's unimpeachable. It's ignorable. It's unshakable. In the meantime, go to self belief. Self belief is that feeling that I can step off the cliff, and I am not going to die. You know, like things might happen, there could be an adventure, there could be a few perils, I might get a few cuts and bruises on the way down. But I'm not going to die. Because every time you want to change, or grow or evolve in this life, you're by definition, punted out of that place of confidence, right? You're back to a place of, I gotta gain more competence. And if you're trapped in that model, you're going to be very reluctant to do that. But if you have self belief, you're like, bring it! I'm all for change. I'm all for growth, I'm all for risk. You know, let's do it! you become way more fun.

Ben Chodor  23:33

Leslie and I were talking before; we're both into boxing, right? So it's one of our passions. It's sort of like that, you know, it's getting hit, you know, it's gonna hurt. But it's either going to make you either smarter, or it's going to make you be able to handle pain a little bit more, but it will change who you are and how you react. So I had a question just a little bit off topic. We were just talking about that somewhere in my mind I was thinking, is it as much nature as nurture that will make someone have swagger? Or is it truly going to be learned? Or is there a combination? Is this what I'm born with? Because who I am and how I'm wired? This is because of the love I was given to my family, or is there a combination of it?

Leslie Ehm  24:18

I think we are all born with swagger. You ask any little kid, they'll tell you, they're smart. They're beautiful. They're amazing. They're strong.

Ben Chodor  24:26

We knock the swagger out of people.

Leslie Ehm  24:30

That's right. And so it all depends at what point and to what degree. Aare there are there you know, swagger interventions in your life that help you hold on to it? Or are you told from day one that, you know, you're too big for your boots? Or you're not really that smart or you're not really that great? Or it's quiet down? Or you know what I mean? Like all of those messages that you're going to get, even from your family, even from people who love you, who you and I both know, are just trying to protect you and make your life easier. But it doesn't really help you to get those messages of assimilation and blending in and, you know, norms. Is it that when you go to school, you get it from teachers? Or you get it from your friends, or your first boyfriend/girlfriend? Or your first, you know, teachers or university or college or job or whatever? Everybody takes their hit. And everybody has an opinion about how you should be. And you know what? If you look back on your life, wherever you are currently at stage, you look back on the life and you ask yourself, how many of those opinions really mattered? Like today? I heard all of them, they all affected me. They all hurt me. They all impacted me, made me feel insecure in the moment. Oh, but do I even remember who those people are today? Did what they have to say matter at all? It's perception. It's about who they are. It's the equivalent to me, it's the equivalent of going into the airport, going to the baggage carousel, picking up somebody else's bag off the baggage carousel, dragging it down the causeway and then going home and putting on their dirty underwear. We would never do that. But we do it in life. We do it in life. We take other people's baggage and we wear their dirty underwear. As they're telling us that we showed. I'm like, No, no, I got my own underwear, thank you very much. I know which bag is mine. And I don't need yours. I got my own, thank you very much, you know? It makes me mad.

Ben Chodor  26:26

You know, I started out saying that anyone who's in business, no matter where you're on your career, you should read it. But I think if you're a college student, if, you know, you're just starting out, it's important to read this because, like you said, society is going to break it while you still have that who you are. So here's a question, just to segue back to book: the work persona and the out of work persona. We've always been taught, you know, this is how you're supposed to be in work. This is how you're supposed to be out of work. I think if you ask my wife, she would say it's almost the opposite. My work persona: I'm open, I'm reachable, I share everything. And in my personal persona, it's not as easy to let people in, right? I trust me more, at least for me. I mean, but why? Why do we have to throw those out? Like why do you go over that in the book?

Leslie Ehm  27:29

I mean, it takes a lot of energy to manage multiple personas. You have to start remembering who was I with that person in that situation?  I think we get it mixed up with the idea of professionalism. And we think that professionalism is something exterior; it's the way we were supposed to walk and talk and dress and so on and so forth. As far as I'm concerned, and what I've seen organizationally, professionalism is: A). being your place of excellence, you know? Doing your best work possible. It's about being accountable. It's about being respectful of the work and the team. It's about trusting other people. It's about not denigrating anybody, it's not taking credit for anything that is not yours. It's about being in service of the greater good and the collective. And it's about showing up every day. That's professionalism. And if your work culture says you know, when there's a client meeting, you want to zhuzh up a little bit? Great, zhuzh up, but do you; your version of zhuzhing up. You know what I mean? Like how many blazers can a person wear? I have never worn a blazer in my entire life. Ever. I'm not built for blazers, I don't like blazerz, whatever. I show up wearing leather pants, or I show up wearing... I tend to wear all black. I do me and I swear and I am challenging and I call people on their shit. And I do that but I do it respectfully. I never swear at anybody. It's never to denigrate. I am there in service of the collective and I'm really good at what I do. And I show up with my full intention. That, to me, is who you want in your organization. You don't want the assimilators. You're not going to get changed from them or innovation from them.

Ben Chodor  29:27

You use a statement in the book from Ron Tite, who we both know, and I know you're very close with him and I'm a huge fan and I've interviewed him on the show, is the hat If you're going to zhuzh up and it's the hat: if it feels right, it is right. I mean, I'm paraphrasing a little bit but...

Leslie Ehm  29:45

Go into to your place. It's the authenticity; [it's] going into your closet and figuring out which hat should you wear for this situation. But it's never about going out to buy a new hat. That is not you, to fit any situation. You already have your hats. And those are the nuances, the tweaks to, you know, whatever, If I were the same in my kitchen as I am, when I'm on stage speaking to 1,000 people, my family would be like, shut up, shut up, right? So I have kind of like levels of intensity that I dial up and I dial down. But you're going to get the same me onstage and offstage. It's just, it's not going to have to be huge, because I'm not taking up as much space. Right?

Ben Chodor  30:29

That's another great point. One of the other terms that you use is "speaking your truth". I use the term "radical candor" a lot. I'm big in this organization of radical candor. It's not something I was always great at. It's something that it's work and you know, but being able to, as long as you do it respectfully, I think radical candor is like the greatest thing in the entire world. And every time someone's given it to me, it's actually made me a better person. But why is it? Why is it so hard for people to speak [their] truth?

Leslie Ehm  31:02

I think the truth has to be spoken strategically; your message should never change, and it should never be stifled of silence. But you got to get smart about speaking your truth, because the whole point of speaking your truth is that it's heard and it lands. So you've got to get smart about how am I going to make sure that my truth lands here? So you got to think about how am I going to frame my message, not change it, frame it? When should I speak it, in what situation, and to whom? Because you can take your truth and look at, you know, a whole bunch of situations where you're trying to speak the same truth, the go is not going to land here. But if I say it here to that person in that way, it's going to be heard, and it'll have the same impact. Right? So you got to think about...  that's why truth, intention and self belief, come to work together. Because the truth is the what. If your truth is not good for the collective, ain't nobody gonna have time for it. Your truth can be good for you, and good for others. It's just about how you frame it. So if you're unhappy with a leader, for example, and they're not getting the best out of you, and you got a gripe, you got a problem, you got a thing, right? You can either go in and say, Hey, I don't like the way that you're leading me. I think that you need to change this. And I don't appreciate that. And I have conflict with you here. And that's not working for me - blah blah, spoke my truth. Suck it. Okay, how's that gonna go for you? Not so well. But if you go in and you say, Hey, I know that what you're trying to accomplish with this team is to get everybody to bring their best stuff to the table. Because I know this team is trying to accomplish great things. And there are some things that are holding back my best work. And I wanted to be able to have a conversation with you about some of those things, to figure out how we can better work together to to make sure that I can bring all my best stuff to serving this mission that we have. Is the person not going Oh, oh, okay. You have my attention now. Okay. And then you have to make it about not about you do this, you do that - I. When I'm in a situation where this happens, I feel like I can't speak my truth so well. When I'm in a meeting and this happens, it's really hard for me to get a word in edgeways. How can you help me with that? Can you help me with that?

Ben Chodor  33:26

That's incredible. I that's awesome. I got two more questions for you. One is: I always thought, you know, swearing in the workplace was a no-no. Why is swearing so awesome?

Leslie Ehm  33:40

Well, I use swearing in the book, as part of the conversation about speaking your truth in ways that are authentic to you. It's about communicating in ways that are authentic to you. Because we tend to when we're in the workplace, we tend to assimilate again into that corporate bullshit buzzwords speak that doesn't mean anything; it's empty, it doesn't have no residence, it has no emotion attached to it. And we use it as a shield, we use it as a way to not have to put our stake in the ground. And one of the ways that people try and control us or judge us or force us to conform is by saying, you know, language, but your language. Well, if I'm not swearing at someone, and if I am playful with my language, and if I am not actively seeking to offend in any way, shape or form, then why is your level of tolerance or acceptance? What does it have to be my level of tolerance or acceptance? What if there are words in your vernacular that I don't feel comfortable with? What if I I'm gonna make it up. What am I? What if I'm an atheist? And you make reference to things that are, liturgical? Do I get to? No, of course not. I would. That's your choice of language. And it's the way you express yourself, authentically. Also, I think that as a woman, too, we are, it's a control mechanism. It's like ladies shouldn't swear. And you know, I've been told that, you know, Leslie, you really shouldn't swear it's not lady-like, like, Oh, you know what I have to say about that. You can imagine what comes out of my mouth from people say that. I also think that there's a lot of misinformation around swearing that people think that it is something bad and offensive, and that people who swear are less intelligent. Well in fact, there's a ton of research to prove the people who swear are actually more intelligent because they have a greater grasp of the English language and the breadth of it. Organizations and cultures that are comfortable with swearing are considered to be more trustworthy. People are considered to be more open and authentic and trustworthy. So we want to be part of those communities where that's okay that you can choose to or not to. And it also is incredibly great for relieving stress and frustration and even physical pain; there have been studies done to prove that being able to go you know, can I swear on the show my allowed to swear on this show? Like, if you're really frustrated with something, you don't swear at someone you go, "For f*ck's sake, I'm so frustrated right now! F*ck!" It actually serves to physically release the stress and will cause the cortisol in your brain to diminish - it lessens cortisol. So there's so many good reasons for it. And it's yet one more thing that people are trying to do, to control who we are, and to get us to, quote unquote, behave ourselves.

Ben Chodor  36:54

Right. I can't wait to play this part for my wife. So I could finally say to her, look, I am more intelligent than you because I curse a lot more.

Leslie Ehm  37:03

We just talked about speaking your truth and framing. You could say, "Babe, I just learned that..."

Ben Chodor  37:10

That's exactly how it will not go down. So last thing is, I guess with everyone's swagger. It can slip or I like, my analogy would be how do you know when you need to tune up? On your swagger?

Leslie Ehm  37:28

Well, I think if you find... Swagger is a journey, and it's ongoing. It's gonna take a long time, I still work on it all the time. But because I have so much awareness of it, I can tell when it's slipping, I can tell when the old thoughts are coming into my head, or the old behaviors. Or when I feel like I wasn't myself in a situation; when that happens, I really try and change in the moment, I chill, I catch myself in the moment, and I drop the bullshit, you know, in the moment I go,  what's happening to me. Or I'm very aware of what's causing that what's triggering that in me, you know? I think there are ways when our swagger slips, often it manifests and we have a slump in our self belief, you know? Our insecurity starts to flare, the fear starts to flare, the the self belief is kind of out of whack and stuff. And we start to all the voices start to come back in Oh, I don't know, when I should have been I could have and I didn't and all the rest of it. And there are really easy ways to counter that very, very quickly. In the book, there's all kinds of exercises that you can go back to, right? That's why I actually created a 40 page companion workbook, so that people can write in the book or they can do it in the workbook so they can keep it retroactive. So once you've done the work, the work is there, the work is proof you can go back to the work. But also things like when you're feeling like for example, you don't have a ton to offer that someone's giving you a knock back and you think you took a blow to your confidence. Go find somebody who would benefit from your stuff, go find somebody to mentor quickly go offer to help somebody and remind yourself of just what a badass you are. Do something that you're really good at for yourself; take some time away and just reconnect with like, Oh, I'm so good at a whole bunch. You can me I'm such a badass it you know, it's amazing. I think you can also revisit I call like the swagger resume. Just take a little accounting of yourself, wait a second. I'm, you know, I've done this and this and this and this and this. I also use my grandmother's advice which was always from whom it comes. So when you're feeling low as a result of somebody else's behavior, you got to ask yourself, who did that come from? Because if you know, no one can take our power. We can choose to give it away. But nobody can take it. And if we should put down the shutters on the power buffet, and we say no, no, you cannot come snacking. Now, I will not allow you to have little bites. Or then you can just say, you know, you can put your little hands through the, you know, the metal bars, but you can't have it. So my attitude when people come for me, I go you do you, boo, you do you. That's all good. And I'm going to do me. You take your stuff over there. So there are so many ways that you can really kind of ignite it; because sometimes laying low is good. Just conserve your energy a little bit. Just be in love with yourself for a hot second, you know? Just easy. You know, it's hard like, we know, as boxers, that the eighth round is much harder than the first. So we don't necessarily want to go into the eighth round when you're not feeling your best if you have just got to cover a little bit and go back to the first round. And I think we all know when we're being full of shit.

Ben Chodor  41:02

Yep, that we all know. I also loved it when you about being you know, everyone is a flawed badass, and I got to say something to you. Leslie, you are a badass. This book is incredible. I cannot wait to start sending this to some people. Everyone in my organization knows that I send them books. And this is definitely top on the list. Thank you so much for sharing part of the journey with me and with the audience. And we really appreciate it. This was actually I can say this was so much fun. And in a lot of ways very cathartic for me too. So I I enjoyed it. And I wish you nothing but success and happiness.

Leslie Ehm  41:45

Oh, you're such a sweetheart. Thank you so much. I love the fact that we just could be real friends.

Ben Chodor  41:51

We had a conversation? Oh, wow. See that? I'm gonna tell Ron, that you like me too. So we'll see what happens. All right.

Leslie Ehm  41:59

You have to say that you like me more than you like Ron.

Ben Chodor  42:02

Listen. Like I told you a story at the very beginning is that I never walked up to speakers. And I was speaking at a conference and Ron Tite was speaking at a conference. And at the end of his session, I literally walked up and I fanboy'd and said that I thought you were great. And then we became kind of friendly. And I feel now if you were speaking I would have walked up to you and said there was another guy that first time I did it. Forget about him. This is who I should have done it with the first time. Thank you Leslie and have a great, great rest of the year.

Leslie Ehm  42:37

Oh, you too. Ben. Thank you so much for having me.