So many of the things that make a great leader feel intangible - like style or presence. But a personal style and undeniable presence are easier to develop than you might think - and it all begins with finding your signature voice.
Join us for this masterclass in learning to lead as Ben Chodor interviews Amy Jen Su, author of Own the Room. Learn about the framework that has helped hundreds of leaders find their signature voice, and explore tactics that will help you to take on the next level in your career - and the next, and the next after that.
If you've ever wanted to own the room, you won't want to miss this episode!
So many of the things that make a great leader feel intangible - like style or presence. But a personal style and undeniable presence are easier to develop than you might think - and it all begins with finding your signature voice.
Join us for this masterclass in learning to lead as Ben Chodor interviews Amy Jen Su, author of Own the Room. Learn about the framework that has helped hundreds of leaders find their signature voice, and explore tactics that will help you to take on the next level in your career - and the next, and the next after that.
If you've ever wanted to own the room, you won't want to miss this episode!
Ben Chodor 0:00
Good morning. good afternoon! Good evening, wherever you are! Welcome to Insights with Ben Chodor. You know, we tried to do one of these a month - we're actually going to shoot two of them this month. We missed a month; like [we've] just been really, really busy. But I'm really excited that we're coming back from our little mini hiatus with this one. All right? And before I give it away who it is, I've had the privilege of interviewing her before! I've read her books before. Her newest book, "Own the Room", is now... Look it's yellow so I can't see that good... "Own the Room" is now my favorite of all of Amy Jen Su's books. I'm excited to bring her on! Why don't we bring Amy on? Amy, I know, you; all your books are like your children, right? You can't have a favorite, but... The timing of this book, how you wrote it? Your co-author with you; I love all the stories in it. It's just... It's brilliant.
Amy Jen Su 1:09
Oh, Ben - thank you so much. You know, it is like your children. There's different reasons why you love each of them differently. This one is near and dear to my heart. I co- authored this one with my business partner, co founder of Paravis Partners, long standing friend. We actually met each other, you know, way back when in business school back in 1997. We knew we would end up being business partners and book authors together. And I think owning the room is like a timeless topic that, as we think about our presence and influence in the world, you know, that's part of the game - and a good topic to always be thinking about.
Ben Chodor 1:48
I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions that really have nothing to do with the book first. But the first one is: as someone who's written books by themself, what was it like having a co-author? Was it difficult? Was it easier? Did you find like... What was it like?
Amy Jen Su 2:04
Yeah, writing with somebody else is different. It definitely... In a world of collaboration, I think all the positives are that you definitely, like, two minds are always better than one; sort of collective wisdom. You approach the topic differently, different lenses. So I think this book benefits from, you know, two minds, two voices, two people thinking together and collaborating. And with collaboration, it comes with all the things we're like, wow, I'm accountable to another person for deadlines. Wow, we actually need to talk about what are process is. And how are we going to communicate? And how are we going to work together? And how do we bring two different voices and perspectives into one consistent vision and execution?
Ben Chodor 2:46
No, I think it works. I mean, I've only written one book, and I had a co-writer with me. And it was great to be able to bounce things off Gab and back and forth. And it just made it easier where when I was at a low, she picked up the slack and vice versa. And because there's someone else counting on you, you're not missing your deliverables.
Amy Jen Su 3:08
Right? There's less procrastination for sure when you have a co-author than when it's just you by yourself.
Ben Chodor 3:13
Absolutely. So here's a question, two questions that have nothing to do with anything with the book. What was your first job you ever had?
Amy Jen Su 3:20
Wow, my first job... mM first job professionally was actually at Taco Bell Corp. in strategic planning. But way, way back, if we go even further...
Ben Chodor 3:29
That's where I want to go, like, your first job making four dollars an hour or whatever.
Amy Jen Su 3:34
Yeah, so it was between - I can't remember timeframe - at some point in junior high/high school, I shelved books at the public library. And at another point, probably early high school, I worked at a surf shop - like surf T-shirts, skateboard shop, doing retail, as sort of a sales lady. And Tony Hawk was all the rage. And my one memory from that was Tony Hawk actually came to the store and signed skateboards, and it was sort of like this big, wonderful moment for all of us who worked at the store.
Ben Chodor 4:05
So you know, it's amazing, but there's a lot of foreshadowing there. You worked in a library and then you wrote a book. And when you worked at that surf shop, you learned that one day you're gonna sign books, right? I'm just kinda putting two together. Alright, so here's my other non-about anything question. I just recently became friends with someone who I interviewed named David Adler; he started a company called BizBash. And he's really into these Jeffersonian dinners. And he always asked like, at Jeffersonian dinners, before you get into the meat of it, you just ask some questions just to break the ice. And he says his favorite question to ask is, who is your favorite teacher? Before you got to, like, college or anything, right? Who is your favorite teacher that you remember that somehow helped guide you through?
Amy Jen Su 4:47
Yeah, I definitely remember. I had this high school English teacher named Mrs. Starnes. And I had her both junior and senior year, and I remember her because she was probably the toughest teacher I've ever had; she was not shy about giving you direct feedback. And, you know, she pushed our group of kids, you know, to really push us to the limit of what our critical thinking could be. She was the first teacher that took us to Broadway to see what a Broadway show was all about. She had us read some of the great, you know, books of our time. So when I think of like, critical thinking, and the judgment and so many things that I have to do today, they really stem from her.
Ben Chodor 5:32
I love that. Yeah, for me, it's two teachers. I had a second grade teacher who just made me feel special - and I just remember it. You know, you don't remember that much when you're young, but when I think about her name - Mrs. Emanuel - when I think about her, she believed in me when no one else did. But I had a seventh grade homeroom teacher named Mr. McGuire; he put us all in the room, turn the lights off in the room, and he played Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album. And then as soon as [The Dark Side of the Moon] was over, he made us write what we were thinking about. And it was the first time in my entire life that I wrote creatively, as opposed to a book report on this person or a history project. And it just sort of opened your mind that there's more than just what's in a book.
Amy Jen Su 6:21
Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. I'm back on memory lane, so thank you for that!
Ben Chodor 6:28
Oh, I didn't think because now, the other thing is like, when you were thinking about that teacher, you knew what you felt like when you're in high school; you felt like you were there. And when I talked about my second grade teacher, for a moment, I'm still like a seven, eight year old boy. I mean, you still think about it. Alright, so I have so many questions to ask you about the book. But this is about the book, but not about the book. When did you start writing it? Like, when did you first, you and your partner, start writing it?
Amy Jen Su 6:55
Yeah, interestingly "Own the Room" came before "The Leader You Want to Be". So, "Own the Room" came out in 2013. But believe it or not, the ideas in it really began at the inception of the firm back in 2004. So from 2004, through about 2010, we were really out in the classroom with leaders; lots of different leadership development programs, training programs, out in the field, talking to leaders about this amorphous topic called presence and owning the room. And then around 2010/2011, we got the great opportunity to partner with Harvard Business Review, who was interested in the content; it took about two years to write. And then it came out in 2013.
Ben Chodor 7:36
Alright, so the question I'm going to ask is: you wrote this in 2013, there was no such thing as COVID, there was not this Internet blast, this virtual world that we live in. Can you own the room virtually? [Do] the learnings in this [book] also work, theoretically, in this environment?
Amy Jen Su 7:56
I hope they do. I mean, I think you're putting out such a great thing, Ben - now the virtual room. How do we own the virtual room? And I think a lot of the principles still apply, right? As you head into a virtual room meeting, what was your preparation and mindset going in? There's a lot about our mindset and the way we prepare. I think the body piece in terms of our expression and energy is really important. I think there still needs to be a sense of connection, a sense of space translation, lots of things I think people take for granted now that we're virtual. And actually, in some ways might be more heightened, as I think about it, than when we're actually in a room gathered together, physically.
Ben Chodor 8:35
Oh, I think when you're in the physical room, there's elements that you can almost fake or someone misses. Because when we're doing this, I'm only focusing on what's in the screen. When you're in the room, there's a second, you're looking to the right, the left, you're here, there's lots of things going on. And when you're doing it virtually, if your body language isn't good, it stands out like a sore thumb, right? A minute, ten seconds feels like an hour. And in a physical room, it's sort of like, when you have that trip moment, if you actually walk in you trip and you fake it off, you can actually fake it off. Virtual, you can't. So starting off with: how important is presence in leadership?
Amy Jen Su 9:22
I think presence is really important. You know, you said something earlier that in the questions you were asking about our previous teachers, that in that moment, you can even remember how you were left feeling. And so presence is this squishy word, but I often say, hey, when you head into that meeting, if nothing else, think about what's the felt experience you want to leave everybody coming out of that meeting? And that's about the quality of your presence.
Ben Chodor 9:50
I love that. All right. So one of my favorite concepts in the book is signature voices. Right? And how this going to help you develop as a leader. First, what is a signature voice? And how do you find your voice?
Amy Jen Su 10:04
Signature voice: we pick the word signature because, like a signature, Ben, yours is different than mine. Right? And they shouldn't be the same; they should be unique, they should be authentic, it should be uniquely yours. And, yet, a signature makes its mark. So like a leader, our hope was that as folks found their signature voice, or unleash their signature voice, or built it, that they were thinking about two dimensions: on the one hand, who am I authentically, as a leader? What's my authentic leadership? What's my brand and hallmark going to be? And then what's the mark and impact that I hope to have on my organization or on my team? And if you put those things together, that's like having a signature voice.
Ben Chodor 10:45
And can you teach it?
Amy Jen Su 10:47
I don't know that it can be taught, but I do think it can be guided; so much of our work is helping people to discover, I think, in some ways, that which is already there. I think sometimes just in the world where things are so busy, and we're moving from meeting to meeting to meeting, the opportunity to pause and have someone just ask you, Ben, what makes you you? Remember to ask all your colleagues, what's Ben's hallmark or signature? And how are you left feeling when Ben leaves a room? It's amazing to hear back the collection of things from your team and your colleagues.
Ben Chodor 11:24
What I hope it is may not be what it is, you know? I hope they feel heard, right? I hope they feel empowered, right? But I don't know if that's how they feel, right? And it'd be really interesting to figure it out. So when you come up with the approach of finding the right balance between passive, driving, and a supportive voice, how do you find the right balance?
Amy Jen Su 11:51
I think instead of balance, I might reframe it to say, what's the situation and what voice is the situation demand? So in some cases, when we are the leader in a role, and we are responsible for driving the ball, that might mean that we need to bring more of our clarity and direction and prescription and really lead the troops. And there's other times where it's actually more appropriate, in the situation, to sit and listen and observe. You might be using all voices in any given meeting fluidly. And the watch out is is when we over index on one form of a voice or one part of our voice for every situation or every audience.
Ben Chodor 12:31
Right? So how much of, you know, owning the room is also reading the room, right? Because I can go into a situation going, okay, here's what I'm trying to do. And then the moment you walk into the room, and you're looking around the room, how much of it is you have to? I don't want to know if it's called like thinking on your feet. But how much of it is you have to be able to pivot? Or is it, you don't have to pivot?
Amy Jen Su 12:58
Oh, I think that, Ben, you're highlighting such an important thing here. I think my favorite term is prepare so that you can be on the fly. But you prepare as much as you possibly can. You have your headlines, your answer first, your deck ready. But the minute you walk in that room, presence becomes being present, so that you can pivot and trust that you've done enough preparation that it's all in your back pocket, but you're not attached to some expectation of how it's going to exactly go because we all know, you got 30 minutes on the agenda and next thing you know, they've whittled you down to 12 minutes.
Ben Chodor 13:37
You know, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts, and I'm starting to travel again. And yesterday I was listening to a podcast on The Sopranos. Right? And really interesting. And the advice one of the directors gave one of the actors once is, an actor has three things they have to do. You have to come knowing your lines. And actually wasn't the Sopranos - it was this thing called SmartLess, and Tom Hanks was on it with Justin Bateman. And Justin Bateman asked Tom anything [he] ever learned from a director and he goes, I learned this at a young age: one, come on time, come prepared and come with an idea in your back pocket. And what he meant by it was, be there in time know your lines, but if it doesn't feel right, you have to have another idea to be able to go in another direction that wasn't written on the paper. And that's exactly what you're saying. And it works in all mediums. So, I want to jump to this. It's hard to toss out assumptions about ourselves and how we are perceived, right? Which goes back to what we're talking about how I always think or hope they perceive me when I come into the room. How do you coach professionals into tackling this?
Amy Jen Su 14:52
Yeah, assumptions are, again, our mindsets, the beliefs, the millions of messages we've heard throughout our life. And I think part of leadership is making sure that it's almost like a funnel; that every year, every quarter, pick your chapter marker, that we look at that funnel, and we sort through what are the messages and assumptions that are actually outdated and no longer serve me? And which are the assumptions and mindsets and messages I've heard that wow, really inform who I am as a leader, and how I want to show up? And say, for example, you know, for the first 18 years of my life, Ben, I grew up in a household with Chinese immigrant parents, and I heard for 18 years of my life, be humble, don't speak unless spoken to. It's about the family, you know, don't stand out. And then imagine I went to my first job, I think I mentioned earlier at Taco Bell, managers owned by PepsiCo, speak up, Amy, Su! We need to hear from you more, right? And then you inappropriately pick the wrong place to speak up, you don't feel like yourself, you get burned. So you go, you know what, forget it. I hope good work speaks for itself. And at some point, I had to sort through all of that mess and say, wait a minute, my parents telling me to be humble doesn't mean be deferential. That's like a faulty assumption. Right? And my bossing speak up doesn't mean don't hold any organizational awareness and just push back whenever you feel like it. And so I've had to sort through that. And now what I've come to is that my parents taught me a lot about old world hospitality and collaboration, and teaming, which informs who I am as a leader, but doesn't mean don't speak.
Ben Chodor 16:35
No, I think that, I mean, when I hear it, I think there were saying, Amy, be kind, right? Humble is not don't be mousy and not say anything. It is just being like, be respectful and be kind, but you have to have ideas. When I interview, I'm the final interview for anyone who touches a customer, or other employees in the organization. So in the last year, we've hired over I guess, 300 plus people, and I've done 300 plus interviews in this section. And the last thing I say to everyone is the exact same thing. Don't just be a name on a spreadsheet. If you see something, say something; if you have an idea, share it. The worst thing that's ever going to happen is that we're going to say no, we're not going to do it for this reason, but thank you for the idea. But whoever wants to go through life just as a name on a spreadsheet, and not to not sharing and getting involved and speaking up? I mean, I think it's what makes people special, right? So we're not drones. All right. So I'm gonna go here, because there's a lot of questions I want to ask you. And I'm reading because I don't want to miss this one. I love the case studies. I loved all your case studies. In fact, to me, I like any presentation I ever see if someone doesn't open up a keynote or talk, and there's no stories involved, it almost loses me. Because when someone tells a story, I feel like I'm going on an adventure with them. And that, no matter what the topic is, right? So you bring these professionals and their challenges to life. So can you share maybe one or two examples? Or perhaps someone you've coached since the book was published? Just, you know, some stories that can help people resonate to what it means to sort of own the room?
Amy Jen Su 18:23
Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate that Ben, so much of our work is qualitative. And so much of why I love this work is, you know, to the word humble - the humility to get to partner and right alongside some incredible people. So I would say [a] recent one, you know, a client that I'm working with, interestingly, finally, just got promoted; got to the executive ranks that she's been hoping for, for her whole career. And sometimes, actually, even at the senior levels, we reached this pinnacle. And suddenly, what she said to me really stuck, like, gosh, it feels like the clock just went back to zero. And here I am, kind of this seasoned professional. And now my first time walking in to be in the C suite room, and the board room. I feel like I'm at the start of my career again, and feeling really ungrounded and insecure. And she described the impact to herself was, you know, just starting to feel all that self doubt and imposter syndrome, but at a different level in her career. But even worse, she said she felt like she was having trouble in the meeting room, owning the room, and instead like feeling that doubt, and then not picking her spots. And so, again, you realize this can happen at all ages and stages of a career where the room changes, the collection of people change, our role changes. And now we've got to reimagine our voice and reinvent and reground.
Ben Chodor 19:48
But isn't that not one of the best parts of the journey? Because if I look at my career, almost every time I've done something awkward; I started a company joined an organization. So you always walk into the room. If you haven't done it every day for months or years, you walk in, always with a little self doubt. And even though you know, inside, you can do it. And I think it's like the butterflies, you know? Not to use another acting term. If you're not nervous before you get on stage, you're never going to be great. And I don't care if you're even in professional speaking, if you're going to do a keynote, and you're not just a little nervous, you're not going to have that energy. So I love that this is a journey. And I should feel uncomfortable. But what you teach in the book is, how to deal with those different portions or how do you own because, again, each room is not exactly the same room.
Amy Jen Su 20:40
Right? Yeah. And I love your point that even at the, you know, championship level, right, I was reading that, I think it's Bill Russell, sort of NBA championship player who I think we cite this in the book where, you know, he has a moment before every game, where there's butterflies and nerves, and he doesn't feel well, but that's actually part of his secret sauce.
Ben Chodor 21:01
Yep. Oh, if you're not on the edge... I am so much better when I am not just, yeah, just going through the motions, because then also, if you're just going through the motions, are you really present? And that's the other thing that you teach into, or you talk about in the book is that, you have to be in that moment when you're engaging. Alright, so one of the biggest "aha" moments in the book, to me, is the idea that what gets you to the next level in your career isn't necessarily what you need to be successful at the moment? How do you go about resetting or revamping your signature voice as you transition to new roles?
Amy Jen Su 21:39
Yeah, it's a lot of the story that I just mentioned. The point of a new role, rather than I think the marker is, hey, I'm not feeling comfortable. It's a perfect time to say, wait a minute, let me now retake stock of where I am. How do I remember and celebrate who I am? How I got to this role? And then methodically plan for, okay, in this new role, what's the mandate? Who's the new set of stakeholders that I need to work with an influence? How do I come to know them? And so you're always riding, as we described in the book, both a deepening in your own voice and self, while you're broadening the set of audiences in situations that you can handle or be effective in. So I think a role changes the perfect time to say, uh oh! What new set of audience is here? What new set of situations? And, you know, let me work my way through them.
Ben Chodor 22:34
Great answer. Alright. So I love also, that you actually say this in the book: presence requires alignment of your mind, your body and your words. Basically, walk the walk, [talk] the talk, right? But how can I know if my mind and my words might be aligned? But how do I get my body in there too? And why is your body so important in this? And if my words and my mind are in line, but my body isn't, I don't think I'll be as effective. Right?
Amy Jen Su 23:09
Yeah, it's so fascinating, Ben, when you look at the research. Something like depending on what you read, between 70 and like, 95% of our impact, is actually nonverbal. So even if we're saying certain words, but our body is not in alignment, our audience, I think there's times when we go, wow, that seemed disingenuous, or the person says they're not nervous, but I see their palms sweating, I see their face getting flustered. Or even if we say, I'm really excited about this new recommendation - so if you have conviction, but you haven't dialed clicked up your own emotion and passion, you're going to leave the audience wondering which is it? Your words or your body?
Ben Chodor 23:51
Yeah. And I actually think if you can show the passion, both physically and with your words, it's like a drug. It engages people, because they're looking at you going like, whoa, you know? Some people don't understand just the words; like you said, if I say it in a monotone way. But if I get excited, and I move, and I think also what you mean is, I happen to be one of these speakers, who, when I get excited, my eyes light up, and I use my hands a lot. But [that] doesn't mean when you're saying your body, your body doesn't mean you don't have to be like all hands and gesturing. A lot of it is subtle. It's like your posture.
Amy Jen Su 24:38
Yes. It's really subtle. I always tell people think of it like a radio dial. We all have a natural place where we sit on sort of our ability to emote, or what feels natural, and you have to kind of read the situation. If it's a serious or serious tone formal presentation, you might place yourself on that dial a little differently than in all hands where you're, you know, sharing the North Star and rallying the troops and sharing why we're all moving in the same direction, then you want to be able to like dial that dial up, still within an authentic band. But knowing where you start in the world of composure to emotion, and where that dial sits and how you dial click up and down is really important.
Ben Chodor 25:22
Which of the elements is the hardest for you to teach or change in in someone? Is it the mental? Is it how they talk? Is it their body movements? Or it might be even something else?
Amy Jen Su 25:34
Yeah, I think what's interesting, you know, in the book, we cover mind, heart, body, as you mentioned. And, you know, when you put mind and body together, that emotion piece, I think there's a lot you can do to build skill, the different repertoires of advocacy, framing storytelling. I think most of us cognitively know what to do. But when nerves get in the way, emotions, you're having a difficult conversation, you've played it out, you know how you want to negotiate. And somehow the other person says something, and it creates that emotional charge. You know, I think that's where helping people say, how do you reground yourself in that moment, catch your breath? To your point, read the room, pivot? That becomes a lot harder.
Ben Chodor 26:18
So how do you practice? I mean, obviously, speaking in front of a group or talking to different teams is the best practice, but everyone doesn't always have that, you know, luxury to do that. What's your advice? How do I practice? How do I find my voice? How do I find who I am? Are there any exercises that you can give the audience?
Amy Jen Su 26:42
Yeah, I always say before meeting, number one, even if you only have 10 minutes, take a look at the agenda and ask yourself three questions. What do I think? What do I believe? What questions might I have? And that way, when you do need to be fast on your feet, you're not using the audience's time to pause, go into your mind, pull out the filing cabinet. So on just the practical preparation point, even a few minutes of jogging a couple of bullet points to yourself goes a long way. Then on the nerves front... go ahead.
Ben Chodor 27:12
No, no, you go, go go.
Amy Jen Su 27:13
I think on the nerves front, whatever that breathing, grounding ritual is; I had one professional share with me that she had read all about power poses. And so before meeting, she was actually heading into the restroom in a stall doing her Wonder Woman power pose. And I said, well, do you think it works? And she said, I don't know if it was a placebo or if it worked, but I think it stopped my mind from worrying and I could smile and have fun.
Ben Chodor 27:41
You know, I didn't think about that. Because part of it is because every time you speak in front of a group, all you do is think about their eyes on you. But you don't always think about okay, what are the things that I do that make me feel good or comfortable in this situation? And so for her is doing the Wonder Woman position. Set your mind on. Okay, deliver? I like that. So with that said, Are you a big believer of rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse? Or is there some element to just know your information and have an element of spontaneity? Or should every single second of the presentation be, you know, outside of reading the room and you know, you have to change it, but if it in the perfect world, should you rehearse will be exactly like the live?
Amy Jen Su 28:31
I personally am not a fan of like memorizing; I think when we try to memorize a script, our mind gets so locked into trying to remember that word. And so I often advise clients, you know, again, bullet points and you're more feeling for the flow of your ideas What's the order? What are some of the messages you want to hit? But then when you're actually in the room, have that come out as naturally as possible. So there is an element of practicing and working your way through that. But then ripping up that script and not being attached to I have to say it exactly with those words, is really important.
Ben Chodor 29:09
You know, it's interesting. It took me a while in my career to learn [that] I am not the best script reader, right? So if I had to go up there, and you know, whether to pitch my company or sell you and go from A to Z, I mean, I'll get through it and I'll probably do an okay job, but I am much better - and I doubt myself a lot because you stick with a script because sometimes you think, I don't know the material and you go, oh my god, I run the company. I know the material as good, if not better [than] anyone. And the moment you sit there and go, I know it. I'm just going to tell my story the way it goes. And you know what, if I miss a few two bullet points I had, oh, well - nobody knows except for you! And if you follow this script, it never comes across, even if you wrote it yourself, like you. But it's a hard thing to learn because you always, like, [to] salespeople I go, the best salesperson is you can have a slide set, it's only supposed to be speaker support. But if you feel like you have to go from A to Z in that order, you're never going to be successful. You got to be able to just know your information, tell your story. People want to engage with someone that they feel a connection with, you know?
Amy Jen Su 30:23
Yes, 100%. I think that's great advice that you're giving folks. Once you drop in, and you're in the flow, and in the conversation, in your present, and you've done enough prep, so it's in your back pocket like Tom Hanks, you know? You'll know what to dole out at what point.
Ben Chodor 30:40
Exactly! I so you've written a bunch of books. And then when you wrote this book, and you've helped so many leaders get their own voice, right? And that's incredible. And you've done it with our organization you've spoken to. What have you learned in this process? Like what is different? So this is perfect. You wrote this in 2013? So what's the Amy of '13 and the Amy of '21, what have you learned along the way that makes you different?
Amy Jen Su 31:11
Wow, that's such a great question. Thanks, Ben. You know, I think it's what you said earlier, it's a lifelong journey. Right? I will forever, like everyone listening to us here today, be in search of that mastery of a next self expression. The next manifestation of purpose or influence keeps changing and evolving. And my voice in what I try to share with the world is going to kind of keep riding with me in that way. So that's been a big learning that rather than forcing or efforting it, there's been a natural unfolding that I also have to trust. So I think the Amy of today is probably a little less forcing, driving, and a little more open and receptive. And I think, the tail end, as you work on voice and as you become more skilled in different situations, so certainly, we want to be as effective as we can be. But I find that a lot of my work now is working with people to say, you know what? Like, let's loosen the grip, and like you can unapologetically be you. So now I find the work is shifting to I'm really searching for that kernel of truth inside of somebody. And what's been this thing that keeps unfolding and keep showing up in different ways.
Ben Chodor 32:28
I love how you've grown. I also think millennials - who are now sort of taking over the world - they want to be spoken to that way. They want more real, right? They don't want to be sold - they want to be talked to. So, I love your growth in it. All right question: who are some of the most compelling or one compelling speakers you've ever seen? Like truly own the room?
Amy Jen Su 32:59
Wow. You know, last week, someone just sent me a podcast with Mellody Hobson. I think she's the chairwoman of Starbucks. And I was so awestruck by that podcast. She was with Adam Grant. And there was this line, she said, and I've been thinking about it all week, Ben. She said - and I hope I don't butcher this. So for everyone listening, go out and listen to that podcast yourself. But she said something that she'd gotten feedback once that she was kind but not soft. And that, you know, she was strong without being sort of unnecessarily tough. Right? And that that was it. I just thought I remember thinking when I heard that, like, wow, that's kind of a signature voice moment where, you know, it is a dance we all ride and she had found her own way. And I was really struck by in sort of found, like, I kind of want to follow this leader and listen to more of her going forward.
Ben Chodor 33:58
I mean, if I had to be a leader, that's the leader I want to be. I mean, I want kind but, yet, who's gonna make decisions; not have a problem making decisions. That's you'll actually want to follow up a mountain. I love that. Oh, yeah. Live speaker that you've seen in a room - anyone in particular?
Amy Jen Su 34:19
Gosh, her name... I was at a conference, and there's this wonderful professor at Columbia. And for some reason right now her name, but I was like, again, starstruck, kind of by the engagement of the room, the conversation. You know, how this person owned the room for sure.
Ben Chodor 34:40
So for me, it's two. About 20 years ago, I had the privilege of hearing Colin Powell speak at an event. And he just owned the room from the moment he got up there and told stories you just were so captivated. And he was so calm, cool, and collected, and you just gripped, you stayed on every single word he said, because you're just around someone who's just pretty amazing. And then recently, about a year and a halfm right before COVID. I was at the Content Marketing Institute's conference; I was speaking there, and I had like an hour before I had to get on a plane. It was in Cleveland, and bunch of my colleagues, were going to go hear a keynote - and I don't normally go into the keynotes because you show up at a conference, you want to network and you leave, and it's just not my thing. And I heard a speaker named Ron Tite speak, and he wrote a book - I actually had a chance to interview him. First time in my entire life that I was in a room, heard someone give a 45/50 minute keynote. And when it was over, I walked up to the stage. Never have done this in my entire life. And I stuck out my hand and go, this was like one of the best, you know, keynotes I've ever heard, and I just wanted to say that. I felt like a fanboy! But I did it because I he moved me and I was gonna say, I'm gonna say for 10 minutes, and at the end, I was like, I don't even care if I miss my flight. I gotta tell him. It's not easy to stand up and go walk over to someone to go, hey, I'll just tell you, you're great. And it took up courage, but I'm so glad I did. Because, he made a difference in who I am. Because you look at him speak you go, I want to be a speaker like he is.
Amy Jen Su 36:21
Yeah. And again, I love what you're highlighting, Ben, this again, this what? How did you leave the person feeling? Right? So often we talk about presence or communications like this tactical X's and O's. When in the end, the ones we remember are this like visceral experience where we were moved, we were touched, we were left feeling a certain way. So I love that that I hope is one of the takeaways from our conversation. I'm certainly taking that away as I hear you describe the people in your life.
Ben Chodor 36:52
You know, it's funny, every time I talk to you, I go, I gotta talk to Amy more. But then the only way to talk to you is when I get you on the program to go over one of your amazing accomplishments. Like always, this was so much fun for me. I feel like every time I get to do one of these interviews, it's like I get to attend a master class and I learned something and I truly appreciate you giving us your time. I know the audience will love it. Everyone should go out and get the book, "Own the Room", and all her other books. It is amazing - trust me! And, Amy, have an incredible day and have a great Thanksgiving if I don't talk to you before.
Amy Jen Su 37:30
You, too, Ben! So great to be here. Thanks so much.
Ben Chodor 37:34
Bye bye.
Amy Jen Su 37:35
Bye.